Hi Dan, An opinion below - Mark
[Dan] Hi Ham Thank you for your response. I agree that "betterness" is relative. I have a problem with an independent "observer", however. Quality, or "betterness", doesn't reside in the observer or the observed. It comes before that distinction. Remember the part in ZMM where Phaedrus goes between the horns of subject and object? In light of Robert Pirsig's writings, it seems clear that the MOQ would state there are no "free choices." We are suspended in a vast web of social and intellectual patterns that make up our culture. This "self" that you posit is a fiction... albeit a convenient fiction. Point to it. Where is the self? [Mark] The relativity of betterness seems inconsistent with the apparent direction of what we experience. If we use time as a measure, then it is possible to notice direction. If everything was relative, I would expect randomness. Inculcated within is our connection with that direction. The distinction arises not in a random way, but somewhat ordered. In my opinion, Phadreus goes between object and object. This is a result of Western thought which treats the subjective in that way. As I have pointed out, Descartes points to the subjective as thought. This is his starting premise which he uses in his questioning of everything. This starting premise is flawed, even though he himself states that it cannot be questioned and therefore must stand. The self is not thought anymore than it is one's heartbeat. The self is closer to you than your jugular vein. Yes, the free will does disappear if we assume that we exist as meat robots which are a function of everything we are constituted of, plus all the outer physical stimuli. This is known as determinism, which has been dealt with ad nauseam. To point to the self, one must assume that thoughts are happening to the self. That is, as I believe Ham states, thoughts are part of the differentiation process which produces value.. As such, they are a physical manifestation which could be attributed to nerve firing. This is the precept of scientific materialism which is searching for such consciousness. However, such value can be considered as observed by the self. Throughout history the self has been discussed much more than the objective world in terms of metaphysics. Such realization is lost in the objective Western world, except through religion, which is illusionary at best in the way it promotes such a concept. As such, it cannot be pointed to, only arrived at. You know who the self is, you just haven't shaken hands with it, yet. Just my opinion of course, Regards, Mark Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
