Hi Ham,
Not sure what part of your post to respond to, I attach a bit below.
[Ham in response to Dave's post]
Before I am ejected from this forum for noncompliance, however, let me
stress (in Dan's words) what being a Pirsigian requires you to believe, and
how this is viewed by an Essentialist.
Dan agrees that "'betterness' is relative," which means it is NOT an
absolute state of the universe, as some here insist. However, he denies
that the 'observer' has anything to do with it. In fact, he rejects the
very notion of an "independent observer" because, he says, "the 'self' is a
fiction." Like Marsha, he asks: "Where is the self? Point to it."
Morality is not an expression of individual value judgments, since "the
'individual' is a set of co-mingled patterns of value." Nor is man, as
defined by Pirsig, a free agent: "it seems clear that the MOQ would state
there are no 'free choices'". Says Dan: "When society establishes law, it
does so by implementing both social and intellectual patterns of value
[presumably residing in the Quality aura] to ensure the cooperation of
biological patterns that might otherwise usurp society."
Now, if betterness (Goodness) is relative, it has to be relative to the
observer who realizes it. If there is no observer ('self' or 'agent') there
is no moral value realized. Then again, if the universe is totally moral
(as Pirsig suggests), there is no NEED to realize it. Instead, mankind
automatically yields to the universal principal. Yes, this is
"determinism"; and I happen to believe, along with the Founders of our free
republic, that man is endowed by his Creator with Life, Liberty, and the
Pursuit of Happiness. What is Liberty if not Freedom? How is man a free
creature if his moral behavior is determined by Natural Law instead of by
his own value-sensibility?
Finally, assuming you are not an authoritarian, do you accept Dan Glover's
premise that "an 'authentic' society would have no chance of becoming
"better" and would die of stagnation"?
[Mark in response to Ham]
First of all, I see it as two interpretations of the same thing. The
conflict seems to be in the details. Such details do not deny the whole
subject. Certainly ejection is always a possibility in a moderated site,
but it seems Horse is requesting discussion, not only agreement. The
purpose seems to be to provide some disparate insights to further the
explanation of MoQ. Certainly there are other sites on the web where MoQ
bashing can be found.
The effector of your negation could indeed be termed Quality. The question
is also, what is Quality acting on or through? If one approaches the
subject and object metaphysics as a dialectic, then the subjective must be
defined. Of course such definition makes it into an objective. If thought
is defined as the subjective, this makes it messy, since thoughts can be
evoked through electrode stimuli, thus provided a physical basis which
cannot be reduced to the subjective. This reductionist approach provides
direction towards the subjective. Many philosophies state that as a result
it does not exist, thus crippling the dialectic. I don't think this is
necessary.
As an effector, Quality need not have a physical basis. It can also be
viewed as a result, such as a shadow. However, that shadow points to
something, which can also be termed Quality. In this way, I am trying to
raise the specter of Quality being both the cause and effect, not just the
effect as Ham proposes.
It would seem that Quality must exist prior to differentiation, and actually
cause it. If not, and man were the measure of all things, then how could he
create himself? Man is an interpreter of something, we can call that
Quality. If he were to create it, I don't believe it would provide the same
internal sensation as it does. The notion is that it is acting on and
through us, not just emanating from us (which it does).
Much ado about nothing.
Cheers,
Mark
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