On Dec 7, 2010, at 2:34 PM, 118 wrote: > Hi Marsha, > Can you appreciate the sun on your face without thinking there is sun > on your face? I think you can. You find it pleasing in an > intellectual way without any subject object.
In a experiential way. I don't need intellectual static patterns of value to enjoy the sun on my face. > If you want to place > this in another level, then you are not using your brain for such a > thing which seems hard to imagine (literally of course, you are always > using your brain in these posts). What? Are you one of those who reduces all conceptual experiences to brain activity? > Mark Marsha > On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 11:23 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Mark, >> >> I disagree that _intellectual static patterns of value_ are other >> than subject-object oriented. But I'm sure I'm over my restricted >> two posts per day so I'll not say more... >> >> >> Marsha >> >> >> >> On Dec 7, 2010, at 2:07 PM, 118 wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I missed a lot of the discourse with Bo as I was on sabbatical from >>> this forum. However I did review some of the posts during that time, >>> not nearly all of them of course. I would have to agree with Horse >>> here. If that makes me disagree with Bo, I don't know. >>> >>> MOQ seems to be expressed in these posts as SOM, that is the typical >>> way of conversing, as I understand the concept. This occurs because >>> conversation is a subject talking to an object. While in conversation >>> we use subjects and objects but MOQ rises from a deeper level which >>> does not contain SOM, as well. Experience and all that, all of which >>> are parts of the intellectual level, fully integrated. All these >>> things come together along with some symbol manipulation to provide a >>> personal world view to others. To make the intellectual level SOM >>> would be to confine it to simple symbol manipulation and I don't think >>> that is appropriate. SOM is just the final form prior to expressing >>> it to others. >>> >>> Now, it could be said that it is language all the way down >>> (digital/analogue processing), but it certainly is not SOM language. >>> Sudden insight (which is intellectual) comes from a mix, of which >>> experience is one part. While I am reading, I am not engaged in SOM, >>> I am experiencing through it. There is no SOM in listening to Wagner, >>> yet it provides insight. If Wagner is not intellectual, then he is a >>> dilettante and not a creator. >>> >>> Just to be disagreeable, I will also say that the intellect is dynamic >>> quality in action, not one step removed as W. James may have said. >>> >>> Don't know if this makes Bo wrong. He might even agree with this for >>> all I know. >>> >>> In memory of Bo, >>> Mark >>> >>> On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 8:07 AM, Horse <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> But the MoQ isn't the Intellectual level. Nor is SOM. >>>> So the Intellectual level can contain both. >>>> Box A (the Intellectual Level) contains Box B (MoQ) and Box C (SOM) - and >>>> Box D and E and F.............. >>>> None of these boxes contain Quality but both MoQ and SOM as Intellectual >>>> patterns of Value are contained within the larger box of the Intellectual >>>> level. They are separate patterns. >>>> So Bo's wrong. >>>> >>>> Horse >>>> >>>> (To be continued tomorrow - probably!) >>>> >>>> On 07/12/2010 15:48, Platt Holden wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Again Pirsig: >>>>> >>>>> "You can't have box 'A' (the MOQ) contain within itself box 'B' >>>>> (intellectual level) which in turn contains box 'A.' (the MOQ). That's >>>>> whacko. (Parens added.) >>>>> >>>>> Bo's SOL is right. >>>>> >>>>> (Under the rules this is my final post on the subject permitted today.) >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> "Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production >>>> deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid." >>>> — Frank Zappa >>>> >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>> Archives: >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> >> >> >> ___ >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
