Mary, Craig, (Khaleed - sorry for the spelling in advance, I don't want to go back to find exactly where I saw your posts...)
I have just peeked down at what you two are talking about. It looks real nice. I hope to have something to say in a moment. But there are a few things I want to say first, which I think will help us all move forward. one: I think the most reasonable thing a living entity can *do* is to be religious. I also think that, for this, one must take personal responsibility. I wonder if plants are continuously praising the proper god! Anyway, I think an intelligent person must admit when he doesn't know; and then hope for forgiveness if he has gone awry. This I think is the central aspect of Islam, as I have come to apprehend through my reading of an americanenglish translation of the Quran. I think that this was the major advance that Allah provides over God-and-the-Holy-Spirit. However, I think that such an isolating position is too much for any man. It is pure mystical crap from that perspective. And would want that? Anyway, I think that the rest of the Quran is pretty redundant, it gets boring and oppressive real fast. I think the bible is far more complete and free in that sense. From my mystical experience I might use the analogy that the Quran is the Masculine, and the Bible the feminine: after all, wouldn't a man try to take the worst of it for his wife? I must interject something which is my own humble opinion here. The old testament proscribes against homosexuality and lesbianism. I think this is to be understood entirely as mystical. I think that the metaphysical fundament cannot be gay! However, biological gayness here in proper spacetime is a whole different thing. Not only should it not be hated, it should be loved. Watch: while fundamental-metaphysical gayness is proscribed, because life couldn't agree to that, there needs also to be a metaphysical proscription for death: if life might go way wrong, if it is a starting in the middle, with naught but hope, it would be a wise thing always to carry along the option for death. So, in this extreme limit where one is wondering whether or not death might be better, it might look gay. It might look like dudes trying to hook up with dudes, or chicks trying to hook up with chicks, but it isn't. It is friendship and neighborliness in the utmost. "I don't want this, and you don't want this; let me get your back while I get yours: the not-beast with no backs!" I suspect that biological queerness is just how this metaphysical analogy manifests itself in proper spacetime. Though I am not gay, I embrace it fully. If you don't believe me regarding myself, I don't care, but I find a different conclusion hateful. Either way, I think human text will always be flawed. No matter how close we can come, I don't see how the mystical can ever be properly proscribed. We are within the mystical. If we love it right I think we can try to leave it out of us. Such a burden is far beyond any solitary neighbor, and it is far beyond any essence of neighbors. If you love the devil too, I think he will love trudging out our mistakes. Take responsibility for your choices: what else is there? Can we reserve for everyone here the right to say "no" without also forcing them to choose death? Anyway, from my perspective it seems "Jesus" was up against this with no help whatsoever! I am glad that I had so many neighbors who had given themselves up to him, so that I knew that, if worst came to worst, I could try this too. Has it helped? If it hasn't, I stand by my testimony: I think that Jesus - with, for me, a real whopping portion of the unknown too - is worthy of my trust: if I want death he will oblige. I see death as the ultimate "no", and I do not see this as hateful or evil. Besides, how can one tell the difference between metaphysical death and metaphysical sleep? Who chooses to be born? Anyway, I do feel that it is he who has forgiven my sins. While I can not explain this intellectually, and I do not care to relate my "journey" in the abyss, I do have faith in the forgiveness of sins - and - to be sure, the starting in the middle I choose was Jesus, lest anyone come to think that I have turned unfaithful. I never gave up myself. This seems to be the prerogative of an 'I', male or female - we are all neighbors, whether we say otherwise or not. Is life worth it? I hope so. I'll take responsibility for my part, but I am just a little part. I respect your rights as equal to mine in this regard (sorry for the curveball, the distortion always finds outlet: it is a blessing and a curse, eh? --- this distortion both grants us our individuation in essence, and it proscribes us from apprehending it's fullness ----- if you love it properly... anyway, I hope that there is still something worth living for, amidst the unknown. Let me now see what Mary and Craig have said: On Thu, 13 Jan 2011 07:11:01 -0600, "Mary" <[email protected]> said: > Hi Craig, > > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > [email protected] > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 1:03 AM > [Mary before] > > the highest attainment of that metaphysics is a set > of PoVs which value symbol manipulation and science > and technology > over > social values [Tim] is this the MoQ over the MoM? > > [Craig] > IMHO the MoQ levels do not show relative value, but the evolutionary > chain > of value. > For instance, biological PoVs evolved from the interaction of inorganic > PoVs, but this does not mean we should value the HIV virus over oxygen. [Tim] hmmmm... are the MoQ levels a negation within which proper evolution can proceed? For instance, within the social, isn't it evolutionary to go from 'I' centered-ness, towards an "other", via an "essence": a collection of 'I's who respect the foundation as 'I', but hate the idea of being alone? Is not forgiveness the fundamental, mystical, quality which is there, even if we can never pinpoint it? > > [Mary] > What I may choose to 'value' intellectually or emotionally is not > required > to be the same thing as what has the highest value in MoQ-ese [Tim] isn't it quality that is simple, and morality which is complex. Wouldn't it be gay - metaphysically - to try to make them either the same or lovers? .... well, I'd like to stop now, maybe I'll come back to it, maybe I won't, I will play as I like. I like to think that I have earned it. I also think that I hold on to humility and love as strongly as ever, so if I flub it up, I think that I am forgivable, and worthy of forgiveness. I have said thank you to all. Let me also say "I forgive you" to all: but that is only for the past. your neighbor, Tim -- [email protected] -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Accessible with your email software or over the web Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
