Very good work Andre, thx for understanding the road ahead.
Adrie
2011/3/5 Andre Broersen <[email protected]>
> Ham to dmb:
>
> Yes, I'm quite aware of the Quality thesis, Dave.
>
> Andre (butting in):
> 'Aware' yes, Ham, but 'comprehending' no. You have shown this much ...over
> the years.
>
> Ham:
> I just don't accept it as logical...
>
> Andre:
> No you don't. But who says that Pirsig's MOQ is logical? Certainly not
> according to your criteria. I liken your use of the word 'logical'(denoting
> a procedure to be followed)to attempting to describe reality as mechanisms,
> systems, programs... anything structured, no matter how complex. Hence your
> need for a soundly reasoned, rational epistemological foundation pointing
> towards some 'finality', some 'source', some 'Absolute' (claiming of course
> your 'Essence' to fulfilling such a role).
>
> Problem is, this is not the MOQ. The MOQ shows how values create these
> programs, systems, mechanisms out of which a sense of static, conventional
> reality is created. And it also shows that Dynamic Quality, the driving
> force, life, consciousness, call it what you like, is heading away from
> these structured patterns.
>
> Dynamic Quality is not structured and yet it is not chaotic. It is value
> that cannot be contained by static patterns. (LILA, p146)
>
> Ham:
> The adage that "everything gets known by some knower" has a poetic ring to
> it that makes us feel good, but it's without epistemological foundation.
>
> Andre:
> This is exactly what Pirsig means. You say: '[it] makes us feel good'
> (which is a statement about value) but dismiss it before you are even
> finished... .
> 'See how this works? A thing doesn't exist because we have never observed
> it. The reason we have never observed it is because we have never looked for
> it. And the reason we have never looked for it is that it is unimportant, it
> has no value and we have better things to do'.(ibid, p 147).
>
> You Ham, recognize it and dismiss it on epistemological grounds because it
> don't fit inside your 'logical' system. This leads me to conclude that,
> after all these years you do not comprehend Pirsig's MOQ, still blinded by
> your subject-object essence.
>
> Ham:
>
> I agree that Value (Quality) plays a significant noetic role in ontology;
> but it is derived
> from Essence rather than the cosmos. And without realization by a
> "sensible" agent, it is meaningless.
>
> Andre:
> Here you go, the separation of subject (sensible agent)from object('from
> Essence'). The MOQ is a program that adheres to radical empiricism.It is
> above all a program about values ordered within an evolutionary framework.
> Dmb has used this observation a few times but I will use it again:
> As Charlene Seigfried, an eminent James scholar, says: 'What is'
> (metaphysics) cannot be designated
> apart from how we know it (epistemology). Neither can it be grasped apart
> from what we value'. The traditional distinctions between ontology,
> epistemology and ethics breaks down so that knowledge and will, facts and
> values are fused and this is how the MOQ unites facts and values.
> As you say above, you simply reject Pirsig's MOQ thesis and that is why I
> am still wondering what you are doing here Ham. I mean this respectfully.
> Look carefully at the sentence you wrote above:'And without realization by
> a 'sensible agents, it is meaningless'. Think about it in the light of what
> I wrote, specifically the word 'realization'. For something to be 'realized'
> it must have value, otherwise one will not realize it. No matter how
> 'sensible' your agent is. This is what Pirsig's MOQ is made up of.
>
> Kind regards.
>
>
>
>
>
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