Hello everyone On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 9:24 AM, X Acto <[email protected]> wrote: > Hello Dan > >> >> Ron: >> "free will" is natural selection. Is'nt it?. > > Dan: > Natural selection pertains to the biological level. There is no choice > involved. The fittest survive to pass on those survival traits while > the less fit hit an evolutionary dead end. At the biological level, > the environment seems to determine the fittest. For example, global > warming is threatening many species not able to adapt. No choice is > involved. > > Ron: > First off, thank you for the discussion Dan.
Dan: You're welcome; thank you too, Ron. Ron: > I must begin by placing my comment within the context of Pirsigs > theory of evolution, the idea that Quality operates on discreet levels. > This gives us as adherents to this theory pause to reconsider the implications > of the idea of what is meant by "natural selection". > Choice, or Quality, is indeed involved only on the biological level as you > state. Dan: But Ron, that isn't what I said. Please re-read my post. I said determinism is involved on the biological level, not free will. Ron: > The bedrock of RMP's assertion in this matter is indeed that "free will" is > Quality > it is what he meant when he stated that atoms may be viewed as prefering their > bonds > that "free will" is exercised on the inorganic level as well. The consistancy > of > this statement > follows that "natural selection" and "free will" is indeed Quality but witin > differing contexts. Dan: Where does Robert Pirsig state that "free will" is Quality? This is what RMP says: "A third puzzle illuminated by the Metaphysics of Quality is the ancient "free will vs. determinism controversy." Determinism is the philosophic doctrine that man, like all other objects in the universe, follows fixed scientific laws, and does so without ion. Free will is the philosophic doctrine that man makes choices independent of the atoms of his body." "In the Metaphysics of Quality this dilemma doesn't come up. To the extent that one's behavior is controlled by static patterns of quality it is without choice. But to the extent that one follows Dynamic Quality, which is undefinable, one's behavior is free." "So what Phaedrus was saying was that not just life, but everything, is an ethical activity. It is nothing else. When inorganic patterns of reality create life the Metaphysics of Quality postulates that they've done so because it's "better" and that this definition of "betterness" -this beginning response to Dynamic Quality-is an elementary unit of ethics upon which all right and wrong can be based." [LILA] Dan comments: Is this what you are referring to? > > > Dan: > Even social patterns seem bound by determinism and not free will. Take > the act of circumcising males. Jewish men have been circumcised for > centuries but they are still born with foreskins. If evolution was a > matter of free will, wouldn't Jewish males be born sans foreskin by > now? > > Ron: > I think that Pirsigs explanation of the four levels of Quality adequitly > describes this > Phenomena by asserting that the comparison drawn above refers to two different > levels or types of evolution. Cutting off the foreskin is a social level > value, > an intellectual > alteration of the biological form not an intellectual or social selection > based > on biologicaly > inherited traits. Dan: Yes, Ron. That is what I said. Choice does not affect evolution as natural selection. That is my point. Do we agree? > > Dan: > Intellectual patterns may exhibit evolutionary free will though to be > honest I am hard pressed to think of any examples. Can you? > > Ron: > Human rights, trial by jury, self government.....just off the top of my head > are examples given by Bob Pirsig if I'm not mistaken... sanitation.. > agriculture, science and medicine...all contributed to increased quality > of life and population explosions to name some biological benefits. Dan: These are all static quality patterns and the MOQ says we are without choice when we follow static quality patterns. Thank you for your thoughts, Dan Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
