Hello everyone On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 1:24 PM, Ham Priday <[email protected]> wrote: > Hey, Dan -- > > On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 11:44 AM, "Dan Glover" <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi Ham >> >> Sorry for the error. I copied and pasted these quotes from my >> "searchable" LILA. Sometimes errors arise in the translation. >> The word "ion" should read "exception." I'll take more care in the future. >> >> Ham: >> Also, what was Pirsig inferring when he called Free Will the >> "philosophic doctrine that man makes choices independent of the >> atoms of his body"? How do ions and atoms factor in free >> decision-making? >> >> Dan: >> Well, forget ions. What he's getting at is the materialistic doctine >> that free will arises from matter. >> >> Ham: >> My interpretation of this statement is that Free Will is an outmoded and >> unnecessary concept inasmuch as "everything is an ethical activity" >> automatically responding to "betterness". The author allows for "free >> behavior" only in the sense that it follows an undefinable goal called DQ. >> I >> don't see how that differs from the laws of Nature, nor do I understand >> how >> being constrained to a predetermined goal can be construed as exercising >> Free Will. >> >> Frankly, the rationale of these three paragraphs seems to argue that we >> would be better off not having a mind of our own. In that way, the >> universe >> could proceed in its prescribed course toward betterness without human >> interference. >> >> Dan: >> In the MOQ, the universe and humans are not independent entities. >Ham: > Ah, and therein lies the controversy. For if man is not an independent > entity, he can not exercise the power of Free Will. Instead he is > inextricably bound to the laws of nature, just as are earth's evolution and > the planetary orbits.
Dan: Aren't we? I think the MOQ states we are bound up within the culture we inhabit. Ham: His choices of good over evil are meaningless, since > his behavior will necessarily follow the cosmic program. How does this > differ from the "materialistic doctrine" disparaged by Pirsig? It's not > matter that controls the universe, it's an adjective called "Quality". Dan: The MOQ states that the universe is an ethical activity. When it follows static patterns of value it is without choice. When it follows Dynamic Quality it is free. The universe is both purposeful and purposeless. The doctrines of free will and determinism , mind and matter, are not disparaged but rather brought together under the umbrella of Quality. >Ham: > Dan, rather than refuting Ron's suggestion that Free Will is natural > selection, you have affirmed it. Dan: How so? Ham: Only through the existential separation of > Sensibility from the Source can Value be realized. Experiential existence, > not Quality, is the subject/object world from which all knowledge is > derived. By denying the individual subject as the value agent, the MoQ in > effect makes Freedom impossible and man's will a deceptive illusion. Where > do human desires, aspirations, and spiritual fulfillment factor into this > paradigm? The MoQ may appease the logical positivists, but in the present > form it doesn't pass muster as a philosophy to live by. Dan: I disagree. I don't think you have interpreted the MOQ in a correct fashion. Unless you're willing to put more thought into the MOQ then we are just wasting time here. > > [Dan]: >> >> To sum up a philosophy from a few paragraphs does a grave misjustice >> to that philosophy. Would you like it if someone did that to your >> philosophy? I really think you need to further investigate the MOQ. >Ham: > I can't count the number of times my philosophy of Essence has been summed > up and mischaracterized in this forum. And my decade-long "investigation" > of the MoQ has thus far failed to persuade me that 'Qualityism' is the > metaphysical breakthrough that offers hope for mankind. > > Sorry to be so negative, Dan, but it's the way I feel at this juncture. (Of > course, there's always the possibility that someone with a more open mind > will appear on the scene to encourage me.) Dan: Good luck, Ham. Thank you, Dan Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
