Dave and Dan, I like that Dave, very witty.
Firstly as Dan says both free-will and determinism are consistent with the MoQ. They are both consistent with an evolutionary view of levels of patterns, which is fortunate because so is the MoQ. Dan's little throwaway rhetorical gag >> Even social patterns seem bound by determinism and not free will. Take >> the act of circumcising males. Jewish men have been circumcised for >> centuries but they are still born with foreskins. If evolution was a >> matter of free will, wouldn't Jewish males be born sans foreskin by >> now? Is witty too, but misleading. Evolution (like the MoQ) IS also a matter of both free-will and determinism. The problem with this example is that foreskins are not amenable to simple single-factor Lamarkian processes. Free-will is constrained by the possible. But (human) free-will processes are affecting the evolution of both humans and other species (biological or otherwise) in both intended and unintended directions. You have to understand the evolutionary processes, (as I know Dan does) before your free-will can direct them in intended directions. And you may have some moral decisions to make before you do - think eugenics ;-) Easy to envisage less contentious examples. (A story in New Scientist "Homo Civicus" just this week on how social behaviour decisions have selected for physical human traits already ...) Ian On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 10:40 PM, David Thomas <[email protected]> wrote: > On 3/23/11 11:36 AM, "Dan Glover" <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Dan: >> Where does Robert Pirsig state that "free will" is Quality? This is >> what RMP says: >> >> "A third puzzle illuminated by the Metaphysics of Quality is the >> ancient "free will vs. determinism controversy." Determinism is the >> philosophic doctrine that man, like all other objects in the universe, >> follows fixed scientific laws, and does so without ion. Free will is >> the philosophic doctrine that man makes choices independent of the >> atoms of his body." >> >> "In the Metaphysics of Quality this dilemma doesn't come up. To the >> extent that one's behavior is controlled by static patterns of quality >> it is without choice. But to the extent that one follows Dynamic >> Quality, which is undefinable, one's behavior is free." >> >> "So what Phaedrus was saying was that not just life, but everything, >> is an ethical activity. It is nothing else. When inorganic patterns of >> reality create life the Metaphysics of Quality postulates that they've >> done so because it's "better" and that this definition of "betterness" >> -this beginning response to Dynamic Quality-is an elementary unit of >> ethics upon which all right and wrong can be based." [LILA] >> >> Dan comments: >> Is this what you are referring to? >> >>> >>> >>> Dan: >>> Even social patterns seem bound by determinism and not free will. Take >>> the act of circumcising males. Jewish men have been circumcised for >>> centuries but they are still born with foreskins. If evolution was a >>> matter of free will, wouldn't Jewish males be born sans foreskin by >>> now? > > [Dave] > > Here's an interesting scenario based on the above. > > The Pirsig's are expecting. Like a large number of American couples they > selected a pediatrician early in the pregnancy and have had the full gamut > of medical tests including several ultrasounds (It's a boy!) and now they > are in their last scheduled appointment prior to the anticipated due date. > > Their doctor is running through his checklist and asks, "Do you want him > circumcised?" > Not being Jewish, and it being their first child they say, "We're not sure, > please explain." > He explains the pros and cons and recommends they do the procedure for the > health and welfare of the child. They are still unsure so he gives them the > circumcision handout with a bunch of websites to explore and asks them to > call as soon as they have made a decision. > > That evening after their long seshuns (him zanzen, her tai chi) they break > out their tattered copy of the I Ching, pennies, and cast their pentagrams. > > The next morning the wife calls the doctor, " We have made our decision. > We've decided to circumcise......" > She pauses here as if not real sure and then continues, "..... his left > middle finger." > > "What?" exclaims the doctor. > > "Let me explain, we strict followers of the Metaphysics of Quality. The > choices you gave us to either circumcise or not, where determined by you and > society. Both are static patterns and as such neither would have been a real > choice of our own free will." > > "You see we follow Dynamic Quality, which is undefinable, that way our > behavior is free." > > The doctor interrupts, " Sorry may I put you on hold for just a second?" > > He hits the speed dial for Child Protective Services. > > 'Hey Marsha, you got a van available, I got another one of those MoQ freaks > for you to pick up...." > > The saga continues > Dave > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
