Arlo said to Marsha:
Yes, "The MOQ" and "Pirsig" are both patterns of value. But this does not mean
the both say things. ...Figuratively, the MOQ spoke to you. Conventionally, it
was Pirsig speaking.
dmb says:
I'm not sure what Marsha's point is, but it's fairly common to say "pragmatism
says this" or "empiricism say that". It's just a figure of speech. You could
also say "the pragmatist thinks this" or "the empiricists believes that". I
don't think any reasonable person would take that to mean that a set of ideas
can speak or that there is just one figure that speaks for all actual persons
within a school of thought. It's just a way to make generalizations about a
particular point of view.
Having said that, it seems to me that there is no important difference between
Pirsig's point of view and the MOQ. It makes no difference if we attribute the
point of view to Pirsig or Pirsig's MOQ. Either way, we're talking about Bob's
ideas.
Marsha:
It is conventionally true.
dmb says:
The MOQ says conventional truth is the only kind there is. Truth is what's good
intellectually. Telling a pragmatist or a MOQer that truth is only conventional
is like telling the farmer that his fields are only dirt. It's not a surprise
to him and it does absolutely nothing to undermine what he thinks he's doing.
Telling a pragmatist that he can't have fixed, eternal truths or thee absolute
objective truth is like telling vegan that he can't have steak. They're just
going to scratch their heads and then, if they're nice, they'll explain the
meaning of the terms "pragmatist," "farmer," and "vegan" to you. Again, you're
misconstruing the rejection of the SOM's objective truth and the rejection of
Plato's fixed and eternal truth as a rejection of any truth. The MOQ's
pragmatic truth is conventional truth and that's all truth can ever be. It's
far less grandiose than those other conceptions of truth but it is still a very
excellent thing to have. Rejecting objective truth does n
ot mean that truth is just some meaningless, whimsical, self-serving illusion.
Pragmatic truths are ones that can be put to work, the one that actually make a
difference in your experience. In what sense is that not real? You use the
phrase "conventional truth" as if it were some kind of put down, like you're
smacking down some essentialist claims about the nature of eternal truth in
itself. Man, that is so barking up the wrong tree.
Moq_Discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
Archives:
http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
http://moq.org/md/archives.html
