[Dan] "I think the confusion is thinking that having a choice is freedom. Conventionally, that is so. But we are not talking conventionally here. We are using the framework of the MOQ. To have a choice is follow intellectual patterns of value and when we are dealing with static quality, we are without choice."
[Arlo] You've given this as an example of something "The MOQ" has said, but neither you, me, Pirsig or anyone else has. Can you show me where "The MOQ" said this? Was it on this lis? How did "The MOQ" type? [Arlo previously] "The MOQ" did this, and not Pirsig? Pirsig does not explain reality better than any other metaphysics, but his ideas do? [Dan] Of course his ideas do. This seems rather silly, Arlo. [Arlo] His ideas explain reality, but HE does not? Are you saying "his ideas" are not "what he says"? [Arlo previously] I'm listening. I hear Pirsig's voice clearly. And yours. And mine. Can you tell me, then, something "The MOQ" has said that Pirsig, or you or me, did not? [Dan] Oh. Now I cannot use the framework of the MOQ to explain what the MOQ says? How am I, without talking to you about the MOQ, say what the MOQ says? Seems a bit difficult, my friend. [Arlo] You can use any framework you like. Can you give me an example of something "The MOQ" has said, that Pirsig (or anyone here) did not? [Dan] I thought it was your contention that "Robert Pirsig says" is a more proper term than "the MOQ says." Isn't that the logical conclusion of such a statement? That the MOQ is Robert Pirsig? [Arlo] No, because I reject "The MOQ speaks" as anything but a rhetorical device. Are my words in this email "me"? No, of course not. They are my ideas, to be sure, they are intellectual patterns that I've constructed, but they are NOT me. Logically, by the way, your attempt to equate the two is precisely what I am arguing against. The MOQ is Robert Pirsig only if "The MOQ says" are "Pirsig says" are equal, and I have said they are not. [Dan] Well, yes. Why shouldn't he be able to interpret the MOQ? He did so by lending his annotations to LILA'S CHILD. And he has helped Ant by offering his interpretations. [Arlo] Because he is not "intepretting" The MOQ, The MOQ IS his interpretation, if you insist on that word. His ideas can change, yes, but every time I change my mind about something, it is not me "reinterpreting" my ideas, reevaluating maybe, revising to be sure. "Interpretation" is like decoding. I don't have to "decode" my ideas. My ideas are my encoding of my experience (within a social/intellectual strata). [Dan] Are you saying every interpretation is equally valid? If so, I vehemently disagree. Some are better than others. That goes without saying. [Arlo] This is exactly NOT what I am saying. Pirsig's ideas are not "an interpretation" of the MOQ, they ARE the MOQ. The MOQ isn't something he encountered and then had to decode and figure out. He constructed it. And of course not all intellectual patterns are "equally valid". [Dan] The MOQ is both RMP's idea and it is evolving into a school of ideas by rights of his sharing that idea. [Arlo] Something cannot "evolve" and also not change. If you consider "the MOQ" in the second light, then "the MOQ" must include ideas that disagree with Pirsig on certain points. Unless by "evolve" you simply mean "spread". [Dan] Then why the awful confusion? When researchers talk about the theory of relativity they don't say "Einstein says." They say "the theory of relativity says." [Arlo] Well, again, my problem is not with this narrative device, but with the confusion apparent in some who move beyond this and start saying that "The MOQ" really does speak, and we are all "interpreters" of what "the MOQ" says. And, at the risk of beating the obvious yet again, Einstein did not "interpret" these theories, these theories ARE his interpretations. They weren't floating out there or something waiting for him to come along and "interpret" what they were saying, they are his interpretations of experience. [Dan] You are of course free to think as you will. I think though that you are missing a great deal here. But that's just me. [Arlo] Give me an example of something you think I am "missing" by saying its not the MOQ that "says" but Pirsig. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
