Hello John, An unpatterned experience IS possible. We do not share every experience, so as you claim no such experience is possible because you've never experienced it, I will continue to state that it is possible because I have had such experiences. I didn't experience it as chaos, but then the experiences were not more than a few minutes. I was present and felt no panic. Actually I felt elated.
I offered the wiki-quote only to validate that it is a documented experience. I found it named in the Nonduality book, and as silly as it seems I was very relieved to see it named. What is it about naming that makes experience more real? Anyway, the wiki-quote was not the experience but some kind explanation. I will not even try to collaborate what Conze said. I'd describe it as seeing without something seen, without differentiation, without concepts. I'm not sure where the comparison with "not this, not that" came from, but for me 'not this, not that' is a reminder that below the patterns there is a fundamental unity. In your post to Mark, you wrote: "One has to care to see a pattern, in order to see it. You have to try. You have to use concepts such as order and symetry and repetition over time, in order to call something a pattern, and once you see it that way, you are attached to your interpretation." One does not have to heed those pattern threads. One can see without the pattern (habit) recognition. I am not going to say anymore because there really nothing to be said. BUT, such experiences are possible, even for nobody special. Marsha On Apr 19, 2011, at 4:30 PM, John Carl wrote: > Hi Marsha: > > > On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 11:04 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> John, >> >> I'm going to say it one more time. There is unpatterned experience; it is >> non-dualistic experience. > > > > John: > > I'm going to refute it one more time then. No, there is not. You're > labeling it that way doesn't make it so. Any more than your authority on > what you experience is the whole truth for everybody. > > Further, I'd think you'd have trouble with the term "this gnosis". I > thought you'd tend to describe yourself more anti-gnostic. > > Anyway, an "undiscriminated cognition" is a far, far cry from an > "unpatterned experience". the former makes sense and the latter does not. > All experience is predicated upon pattern. > > I'm as sure of this as I am "makes free from uncertainty (or false > discrimination) = distinguishes, considers carefully.[9]" has nothing to do > with "not-this, not that". > > Take care, > > John > > > > >> It is sometimes identified as nirvikalpa. I had >> such experiences; though I figure that there must be degrees, because >> I am certainly not enlightened. Here is how Wiki has Edward Conze >> described it. >> >> "In Buddhist philosophy, the technical term nirvikalpa-jñāna is translated >> by Edward Conze as "undifferentiated cognition".[7] Conze notes that only >> the actual experience of nirvikalpa-jñāna can prove the reports given of it >> in scriptures. He describes the term as used in Buddhist context as follows: >> >> The "undiscriminate cognition" knows first the unreality of all objects, >> then realizes that without them also the knowledge itself falls to the >> ground, and finally directly intuits the supreme reality. Great efforts are >> made to maintain the paradoxical nature of this gnosis. Though without >> concepts, judgements and discrimination, it is nevertheless not just mere >> thoughtlessness. It is neither a cognition nor a non-cognition; its basis is >> neither thought nor non-thought.... There is here no duality of subject and >> object. The cognition is not different from that which is cognized, but >> completely identical with it.[8] >> >> A different sense in Buddhist usage occurs in the Sanskrit expression >> nirvikalpayati (Pali: nibbikappa) that means "makes free from uncertainty >> (or false discrimination) = distinguishes, considers carefully.[9]" >> >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvikalpa >> >> >> Marsha >> >> >> ___ >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
