Mark, And? You've expressed an opinion, and? I did not see a question, so? Is there a specific point you'd like to discuss further or should I use try to apply a Rorschack method. Maybe you think I should go bake cookies because my posts are so ridiculous? I think it's about the journey, so maybe you think I should follow in your footsteps?
Of course, I use the word 'I' all the time, it's a significant pronoun in the language I speak, and it represents a habit of thought. Marsha On Apr 21, 2011, at 1:39 AM, 118 wrote: > Hi Marsha, > > I am still a little confused about what is being pointed to with the > word pattern. What is presented just doesn't make sense to me. Most > of our days are not patterned experience, as far as I can tell. We > pattern things by forming an image in our heads for what appears > outside. We certainly do not do that for over 99% of our experience. > We certainly speak in patterns, but we are not talking all the time. > And even when talking, that is only a small part of what is happening > right then. When one approaches each moment in a mindful manner it is > easier to see how the mind is constantly jumping, second to second. > Most of that is not patterned. Perhaps I don't understand patterned. > Perhaps I am tired of reading that word. Perhaps I am an ornery old > man. > > Nonduality is not some intellectual achievement. Most of our day is > not dual, this is easy to see if one pays attention. There is no > subject or object when one is dancing. What is the object of dancing? > When we choose to talk about it, then it becomes dual because we must > resort to agreed on methods. If we care to share something we pattern > it. Otherwise we don't. This as I have suggested is the societal > level impinging on the personal level. Naming is a tool used for > communication, nothing else. We don't have to know that a tree is > called a tree, unless we want to share it. > > Let's say that I am continually changing. The fact that I use the > pronoun "I" means that I believe I exist. I believe you, Marsha, also > use the word "I" sometimes. We can say that we believe certain > things, but it becomes obvious from the rhetoric used that we really > don't. Many who are enlightened such as some Christians or Buddhist > refer to themselves as "this body". I think that is kind of silly if > you ask me (yeah, I know, nobody ever does). The fact that I change > and cannot be pinpointed does not mean that I don't exist. If that > were true then a tornado would not exist. My daughter, who is in > school in North Carolina, would say that's silly. "Dad, are you > talking about that weird stuff again?" > > When you state that there is a fundamental unity, I think I know what > you are pointing at. However, fundamental unity has no reference, so > it could be everything or nothing both at the same time. We could say > that water has fundamental unity. But such a statement is comparing > it to something that doesn't. If everything is the same thing, then > we could easily say that by that logic, everything is different too. > Saying that everything has fundamental unity is good rhetoric, but is, > in the end, a meaningless statement. > > People are using "Not this, not that" in ways it was never intended to > be used. It has lost all meaning. As if "not this, not that" > actually presents an argument of something. This is absurd, if I may > say so (forgot to ask permission). Like: "What is it?" "Well, it IS > not this, not that". What is that all about? IS it something or > isn't it? If it isn't then what is all the fuss about? If it is > something, well. by golly, then let's talk about it. I guess it > depends on what the meaning of "is" is. > > Cheers as always, > Mark > > On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 10:58 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Hello John, >> >> An unpatterned experience IS possible. We do not share every experience, >> so as you claim no such experience is possible because you've never >> experienced it, I will continue to state that it is possible because I have >> had such experiences. I didn't experience it as chaos, but then the >> experiences were not more than a few minutes. I was present and felt >> no panic. Actually I felt elated. >> >> I offered the wiki-quote only to validate that it is a documented experience. >> I found it named in the Nonduality book, and as silly as it seems I was very >> relieved to see it named. What is it about naming that makes experience >> more real? Anyway, the wiki-quote was not the experience but some kind >> explanation. I will not even try to collaborate what Conze said. I'd >> describe >> it as seeing without something seen, without differentiation, without >> concepts. >> >> I'm not sure where the comparison with "not this, not that" came from, but >> for me 'not this, not that' is a reminder that below the patterns there is a >> fundamental unity. >> >> In your post to Mark, you wrote: >> >> "One has to care to see a pattern, in order to see it. You have to >> try. You have to use concepts such as order and symetry and repetition over >> time, in order to call something a pattern, and once you see it that way, >> you are attached to your interpretation." >> >> One does not have to heed those pattern threads. One can see without >> the pattern (habit) recognition. >> >> I am not going to say anymore because there really nothing to be said. >> BUT, such experiences are possible, even for nobody special. >> >> > [Mark] > Ahhh, there is so much to be said, and so little time. > > >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
