Greetings Tuukka, Maybe my bad choice of words. It was a question, not my opinion. Maybe I should have written a better question.
My point was that there seems nothing wrong with the law punishing & incarcerating an individual to protect society without free will entering the equations. imho. Marsha On Aug 8, 2011, at 4:11 PM, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote: > I think "holding someone responsible" is as much an illusion as free will > itself. Free will is not a necessary justification for punishment of crime. > We usually don't want crime, and punishment serves as deterrent of crime. > Also, the current kind of justice system seems to be fairly accepted among > commoners, in that it does not usually cause them to protest or otherwise > lessen their trust in society. On the contrary, people find the justice > system, generally, to increase their trust in society. The question on how to > reduce crime while minimizing the damage our crime reduction efforts do to > static and Dynamic Quality is completely valid without a concept of free > will. A separate question is what kind of punishments the general public > perceives as just (=useful, economic, not wasteful, increases safety, not > cruel, etc.) and what kind of punishments feel unjust. The general public > might be wrong, but it's able to change its mind, ecspecially if a better > alternative is offered . Again, no free will required. > > I just don't understand what the general fuss about free will is about. Not > yet, at least. Has it ever been proposed as necessary for some other major > question except theological questions and the question of punishing crime? > > -Tuukka > > > > 8.8.2011 17:57, MarshaV kirjoitti: >> >> Is there a difference between the law holding someone responsible& >> protecting citizens from further harm and a individual being "morally >> responsible"? Just a question... >> >> >> >> >> >> On Aug 8, 2011, at 10:36 AM, david buchanan wrote: >> >>> Ian says he is "not getting what [Steve's] disagreement actually is [with >>> dmb]": >>> >>> So let's come back to your [Steve's] statement "moral (responsibility) and >>> free will are not linked (as a logical necessity)" ... I am at a loss to >>> understand how you are separating free-will from responsibility (at any >>> level, common sense, science, MoQ or metaphysical in general). >>> >>> >>> dmb says: >>> >>> As I understand it, the nature of the disagreement is very simple. Steve >>> says they are not linked and I say that his denial defies logic and >>> overwhelming evidence to the contrary. >>> >>> I tried, unsuccessfully, to get Steve to put every other factor aside and >>> just focus on the sheer logic of it. I thought if you looked at that single >>> brick with fresh eyes he'd see for himself what I mean. And so I asked just >>> one question. >>> >>> If our actions are determined, then how can we be held responsible for >>> those actions? >>> >>> I think that Steve cannot answer that question because it is logically >>> impossible. NOBODY can answer that question because you cannot be held >>> responsible for actions over which you have no control. Who says you aren't >>> responsible unless you have a choice? Mr. Pirsig, Mr. Logic, Mr. dictionary >>> and her highness, Princess encyclopedia, that's who. >>> >>> At one point, if memory serves, Steve even went so far as to say that >>> Pirsig doesn't talk about moral responsibility and otherwise suggested it >>> plays no important role in the MOQ. As far as I can figure, this odd stance >>> is a result of trying to make the MOQ accommodate Sam Harris's neurological >>> determinism wherein persons are as morally culpable as tornadoes. >>> >>> >>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> >> >> ___ >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
