hey Andre, Good stuff, inserted at the perfect moment, thnx. hope others take note -R
From: Andre Broersen <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 6:14 AM Subject: Re: [MD] "Could have acted differently" v. "the extent to, which we perceive DQ" >From Lila's Child: Hugo: "In my view, "free will" is a term that can only be used of self-conscious (self reflective) creatures. "Will" is a term we may use of any organism- of any autonomous entity- describing the goal involved in autonomy. And "free will" is the ability to change that goal; the ability of the autonomous entity to chose between more than one predetermined (as for that entity) goal" (p 216) Pirsig's response:"Traditionally, this is the meaning of free will. But the MOQ can argue that free will exists at all levels with increasing freedom to make choices as one ascends the levels. At the lowest inorganic level, the freedom is so small that it can be said that nature follows laws but the quantum theory shows that within the laws the freedom is still there..." (Annotn 75) Andre: The same can be said of the freedom existing at the organic level(Law of the Jungle) the social level (the Law) and the intellectual level ( '...nearly complete choice, e.g. what I believe to be true) and to complete freedom at the Dynamic 'Code of Art' level. (Anthony's PhD, p 137) It seems to me that Pirsig has 're-contextualized' the expression of freedom or the will to be free in terms of preference and probability. In this way one can argue that "The MOQ puts an end to this ancient freewill vs. determinism controversy by showing that both preference and probability are subsets of value..."(ibid) On p222 of Lila's Child, Bodvar asks: "If the world is composed of values, then who is doing the valuing? Let me re-phrase this and place it in this debate: to what extent is _our_ behavior free/determined? Do we have '_individual_' freedom?(this is Ham's catch cry) or as Steve (to Arlo) would put it:"... but I wonder if you'd agree with me that in your second way of understanding free will as a useful or not useful concept, it no longer makes much sense to wonder if _we_ _have_ it.". Pirsig's response to Bodvar: "This is a subtle slip back into subject-object thinking. Values have bee converted to a kind of object in this sentence, and then the question is asked, "If values are an object,then where is the subject?" The answer is found in the MOQ sentence,"It is not Lila who has values, it is values that have Lila."Both the subject and the object are patterns of value."( Annotn 76). To further clarify: "It's important to remember that both science and Eastern religions regard "the individual" as an empty concept. It is literally a figure of speech. If you start assigning concrete reality to it, you will find yourself in a philosophic quandary".( Annotn 77) "There isn't any 'man' independent of the patterns. Man is the patterns. This fictitious 'man' has many synonyms; 'mankind', 'people', 'the public' and even such pronouns as 'I', 'he', and 'they'. Our language is so organized around them and they are so convenient to use it is impossible to get rid of them. There is really no need to. Like 'substance' they can be used as long as it is remembered that they are terms for collections of patterns and not some independent primary reality of their own". (LILA, p158) (Sorry Ham) The freewill vs determinism debate can better be restated in terms of preference and probability (which, as Pirsig says, are subsets of value). This makes much more sense, also from an evolutionary perspective where "...Pirsig's particular perception of the universe's evolution [is seen] as being primarily an evolution of values...". ( Anthony's PhD p 87) This process is the interplay/struggle of preferences and probabilities as laid out in the MOQ. In other words: DQ/sq. It is the dance of 'Lila'. Imho. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
