Tell me something I don't know Marsha .... ;-) On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 9:59 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Ian, > > > “There isn't any 'man' independent of the patterns. Man is the patterns. > This fictitious 'man' has many synonyms; 'mankind,' 'people,' 'the public,' > and even such pronouns as 'I,' 'he,' and 'they.' Our language is so > organized around them and they are so convenient to use it is impossible to > get rid of them. There is really no need to. Like 'substance' they can be > used as long as it is remembered that they're terms for collections of > patterns and not some independent primary reality of their own. > > (LILA, Chapter 12) > > > Marsha: > The assumption in your comment seems to go beyond just using conventional > (pronouns) language. Really, which pattern gets it right or wrong? > > So again: > > > "While I am thinking about it there is a very good book on Buddhism > recently out called 'Buddhism, Plain and Simple', by Steve Hagen and > published by Tuttle Publishing. I recommend you get it because it shows the > similarities, between the MOQ and Zen Buddhism more clearly than any other I > have seen." > > Pirsig to McWatt, May 6th 1998. > > --- > > > "When the Buddha spoke of individuals, he often used a different term > “stream.” Imagine a stream flowing --- constantly moving and changing, > always different from one moment to the next. Most of us see ourselves as > corks floating in a stream, persisting things moving along in the stream of > time. But this is yet another frozen view. According to this view. > everything in the stream changes except the cork. While we generally admit > to changes in our body, our mind, our thoughts, our feelings, our > understandings, and our beliefs, we still believe, “I myself don’t change. > I’m still me. I’m an unchanging cork in an ever-changing stream.” This is > precisely what we believe the self to be --- something that doesn’t change. > > "The fact is, however, that there are no corks in the stream. There is > only stream. What we conceptualize as “cork” is also stream. We are like > music. Music, after all, is a type of stream. Music exists only in > constant flow and flux and change. Once the movement stops, the music is no > more. It exists not as a particular thing, but as pure coming and going > with no thing that comes or goes. > > "Look at this carefully. If this is true --- how a stream exists, how > music exists, and how we exist --- see how it is that when we insert the > notion of “I” we’re posited some little, solid entity that floats along, not > as stream, but like a cork in a stream. We see ourselves as solid corks, > not as the actual stream we are. > > "If we are the stream, what is it that experiences the flux, the flow, the > change? The Buddha saw that there is no particular thing that is having an > experience. There is experience, but no experiencer. There is perception, > but no perceiver. This is consciousness, but no self that can be located or > identified." > > > (Hagen, Steve, ‘Buddhism: Plain and Simple’, p.128) > > > > Marsha > > > On Sep 23, 2011, at 4:42 AM, MarshaV wrote: > > > > > Ian, > > > > What is this WE? How do WE get anything right or wrong? > > > > > > Marsha > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sep 23, 2011, at 4:31 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: > > > >> Steve, > >> > >> Saying our free-will is "part random" is not the same as saying it's "by > its > >> very nature unpredictable" is it ! By its very nature it's free will, > ... > >> but ... > >> > >> It's just honest to recognise that our will is subject to chance too - > and > >> it's beneficial two ways - we can take account of the unpredictability > in > >> our willed choices and actions, through guesses, percentages, margins > for > >> error, plan-B fallbacks, etc - AND - when we get it wrong we learn > >> something from what we didn't expect, and evolve our will. > >> > >> Not complicated. > >> Ian > >> > > > > ___ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
