On Mar 11, 2012, at 1:18 AM, Dan Glover <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hello everyone
>
> On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 8:33 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi Dan,
>>
>> On Mar 10, 2012, at 8:32 PM, Dan Glover <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello everyone
>>>
>>> On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 2:13 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hello Dan,
>>>>
>>>> I think it best to consider static patterns of value from two different
>>>> points-of-view. The first would be the nature of all patterns:
>>>> conditionally co-dependent, impermanent, ever-changing and conceptualized.
>>>> The process of conceptualization would pertain to all patterns
>>>> (ideas/language).
>>>
>>> Dan:
>>> Are you saying these patterns exist in and of themselves?
>>
>> Marsha:
>> Not at all, I am not saying that patterns exist in and of themselves. I was
>> suggesting that all patterns (inorganic, biological, social & intellectual)
>> have an interdependent relationship with the process of conceptualization.
>
> Dan:
> Why isn't this a case of mistaking the finger for the moon at which it
> is pointing?
Marsha:
Why would it be mistaking the finger for the moon? Can patterns ever represent
more than pointing? I'd answer no.
>> Dan:
>>> If so, then
>>> I disagree. I think they are provisional... they work until something
>>> better comes along. Seeing static patterns of quality as ever-changing
>>> and impermanent seems to go against Robert Pirsig's notion that it is
>>> best to find a balance between Dynamic Quality and static quality. If
>>> static patterns are always changing, how could we hope to form static
>>> latches? Wouldn't any evolutionary advance necessarily fall back?
>> Marsha:
>> A river is ever-changing, but changes within a stable pattern. Skin is
>> ever-changing, but changes within a stable pattern. Static patterns of
>> value pragmatically tend to persist and change within a stable, predictable
>> pattern.
>
> Dan:
> So the patterns are not 'ever-changing' so much as changing within the
> context of stability... or static patterns responding to Dynamic
> Quality...
Marsha:
No, they are ever-changing, but change within a stable, predictable pattern.
Certainly within the relationship with consciousness (the flow thoughts),
patterns come into existence, transform and pass away in a moment, and a
pattern is never exactly the same as it was even a moment before.
Additionally, patterns would be different for each individual dependent on
their static pattern history.
>>>> Marsha:
>>>> The second point-of-view would be categorization by evolutionary function
>>>> into their four-level, hierarchical structure: inorganic, biological,
>>>> social and intellectual. Then intellectual static patterns of value are a
>>>> particular category of pattern that began to emerge with the ancient
>>>> Greeks and functions in a particular manner: mathematics, philosophy,
>>>> science, etc.
>>>
>>> Dan:
>>> Why not simply say intellectual patterns are ideas. It is a good idea
>>> to state inorganic patterns of quality come first. It is a better idea
>>> to say that Quality comes first.
>>
>> Marsha:
>> Because static quality represents all that can be conceptualized and
>> conceptualization includes thoughts and ideas. Static patterns of value
>> from all the levels are conceptually constructed. It is a better idea to
>> say that Quality comes first, but would Quality exist without the
>> relationship with the conceptualization process?
>
> Dan:
> The four levels represent an encyclopedia of reality... a way of
> ordering. They represent more than intellectual patterns of quality.
> Here, you seem to be saying intellectual quality is all there is, but
> this goes against the MOQ.
Marsha:
I am not saying all patterns are just concepts. I am saying that all patterns,
including inorganic, bioligical and social patterns, have a relationship with
the conceptualization process. Additionally, I am saying that all patterns can
be categorized, or ordered, into the four-level, hierarchical, evolutionary
structure. I agree that all patterns may be thought to represent an
encyclopedia of reality.
> Thank you,
>
> Dan
Marsha
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