Andre - I don't get your logic ? The quote you snipped concerned Pirsig's words quoted by Dave about SQ patterns being discrete whilst being of the the same stuff. I was just prompted by Horse's attempt to elucidate Marsha's response to the original topic David's "rhetorical " question to Mark. Just joining up a few dots in the thread.
What Marsha says is actually true and supported David's point to Mark - as to why patterns are key to MoQ, and not just some random arbitrary choice of words for obscurantist reasons. Why Marsha continually points these truths out at every turn - I'm at as much of a loss as you, I think Horse was trying to ask her - ie I agree that if that's where the argument ends, we've got nowhere. Marsha seem to prefer that state - and many of us - trying to find pragmatic conclusions to act upon in the messy real world - get wound up by that it seems. Ian On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 9:59 AM, Andre <[email protected]> wrote: > Ian (in seeming defense of Marsha): > > > I think the "not" exclusive and "almost" independent are important > qualifiers. The patterns are discrete, without simple one-way causal > dependency - each has a life if its own - but they do comprise the same > indefinable quality stuff. > > Andre: > Yes Ian, and what you say is correct. We all know that. It is old hat. Thing > is that some patterns have a tendency to persist longer (over time) than > others. The pattern "mountain" persists longer than the pattern "car" or the > pattern "dog" or any other (higher) social or intellectual pattern. > > We all hope, I presume, that the intellectual pattern called "MOQ" will > persist for a very long time. On the AHP tapes Pirsig said he wrote LILA to > last a thousand years. But the indiscriminate application of static patterns > being 'ever changing' hollows out (for want of a better expression) the > application of the MOQ and , for that matter the implications of the MOQ. > > It dismisses any suggestion, any attempt at discussion, any idea presented, > as mere opinion, as having no basis of any validity or quality BECAUSE (so > Marsha's argument/defense/dismissal goes) all is grounded in emptiness. > > Well, we know all that. And yes, we will all be equal in the end. What I > hear then is: so why bother? Why doing your best? Riding sq patterns in an > attempt at betterness is utter folly. You are kidding yourself BECAUSE they > are illusory. They don't really exist in the way you think they exist > because before you blink they have changed again! > > Because of this, Marsha fails to explain herself other than appealing to the > ever changing, illusory nature (contradiction in terms...[is the illusion > ever changing as well?])of what she experiences in her vipassana exploits. > Her other contributions to this forum remain youtube, quotes about Buddhism > and "I-answer-your-questions-with-my-questions". > > I think dmb is right when he says that, adopting this stance you have no > position on Pirsig's MOQ. In fact you have no position on anything! This is > destructive. I think she is carrying this DQ part through to an extreme. As > Pirsig says, DQ has no holding power on its own. You need to latch otherwise > your gains will be lost, they will slide back to a lower level. Marsha > denies the latching by denying rightful status of sq patterns. This is > nihilistic. Doesn't 'get' you anywhere because there is nowhere you come > from and nowhere to go. > > In other words, all the advances and achievements > (intellectual/consciousness) made mean absolutely nothing. Not realizing > that sq advances have led, for example to an MOQ in the first place. Dismiss > sq (they are only conventional and pragmatically useful) but keep on > stressing that they are illusory and any meaningful discussion is out the > window. > > Is this what you defend and support as well? > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
