Complain, complain… Wind up Andre and you get primarily sighing, whining, impatience, complaining, name-dropping and reference to snot-buckets.
On Mar 21, 2012, at 6:19 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: > Andre - I don't get your logic ? > > The quote you snipped concerned Pirsig's words quoted by Dave about SQ > patterns being discrete whilst being of the the same stuff. I was just > prompted by Horse's attempt to elucidate Marsha's response to the > original topic David's "rhetorical " question to Mark. Just joining up > a few dots in the thread. > > What Marsha says is actually true and supported David's point to Mark > - as to why patterns are key to MoQ, and not just some random > arbitrary choice of words for obscurantist reasons. > > Why Marsha continually points these truths out at every turn - I'm at > as much of a loss as you, I think Horse was trying to ask her - ie I > agree that if that's where the argument ends, we've got nowhere. > Marsha seem to prefer that state - and many of us - trying to find > pragmatic conclusions to act upon in the messy real world - get wound > up by that it seems. > > Ian > > On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 9:59 AM, Andre <[email protected]> wrote: >> Ian (in seeming defense of Marsha): >> >> >> I think the "not" exclusive and "almost" independent are important >> qualifiers. The patterns are discrete, without simple one-way causal >> dependency - each has a life if its own - but they do comprise the same >> indefinable quality stuff. >> >> Andre: >> Yes Ian, and what you say is correct. We all know that. It is old hat. Thing >> is that some patterns have a tendency to persist longer (over time) than >> others. The pattern "mountain" persists longer than the pattern "car" or the >> pattern "dog" or any other (higher) social or intellectual pattern. >> >> We all hope, I presume, that the intellectual pattern called "MOQ" will >> persist for a very long time. On the AHP tapes Pirsig said he wrote LILA to >> last a thousand years. But the indiscriminate application of static patterns >> being 'ever changing' hollows out (for want of a better expression) the >> application of the MOQ and , for that matter the implications of the MOQ. >> >> It dismisses any suggestion, any attempt at discussion, any idea presented, >> as mere opinion, as having no basis of any validity or quality BECAUSE (so >> Marsha's argument/defense/dismissal goes) all is grounded in emptiness. >> >> Well, we know all that. And yes, we will all be equal in the end. What I >> hear then is: so why bother? Why doing your best? Riding sq patterns in an >> attempt at betterness is utter folly. You are kidding yourself BECAUSE they >> are illusory. They don't really exist in the way you think they exist >> because before you blink they have changed again! >> >> Because of this, Marsha fails to explain herself other than appealing to the >> ever changing, illusory nature (contradiction in terms...[is the illusion >> ever changing as well?])of what she experiences in her vipassana exploits. >> Her other contributions to this forum remain youtube, quotes about Buddhism >> and "I-answer-your-questions-with-my-questions". >> >> I think dmb is right when he says that, adopting this stance you have no >> position on Pirsig's MOQ. In fact you have no position on anything! This is >> destructive. I think she is carrying this DQ part through to an extreme. As >> Pirsig says, DQ has no holding power on its own. You need to latch otherwise >> your gains will be lost, they will slide back to a lower level. Marsha >> denies the latching by denying rightful status of sq patterns. This is >> nihilistic. Doesn't 'get' you anywhere because there is nowhere you come >> from and nowhere to go. >> >> In other words, all the advances and achievements >> (intellectual/consciousness) made mean absolutely nothing. Not realizing >> that sq advances have led, for example to an MOQ in the first place. Dismiss >> sq (they are only conventional and pragmatically useful) but keep on >> stressing that they are illusory and any meaningful discussion is out the >> window. >> >> Is this what you defend and support as well? >> >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
