Hi Marsha, Yes, I try to come to peace with what is. Often acceptance is the best way. With acceptance comes great freedom. But then I want to keep moving and so I dismiss acceptance and enter turmoil for a while. It is a cycle of pain, growth, peace, pain, growth, ...
There is so much to contemplate, I wish I could live for a thousand years. I am sure I would stay dynamic. Alas... Sent laboriously from an iPhone, Mark On Mar 22, 2012, at 9:59 PM, MarshaV <val...@att.net> wrote: > > Hi Mark, > > "Changing oneself " does seem a little paradoxical from one that does not > accept the conventional notion of a "self". Who'd be changing, and changing > what? To me that change, while not so easy, is not so complicated. To me, > that change is to know deeply "the way things are". Not merely 'know > intellectually', not merely 'know conceptually', not merely know from what > others have said, but to know first hand, to know deeply and to have seen for > yourself. Maybe the result might be, at the very least, to be one less > individual polluting reality with ignorance, greed and anger. > > > Marsha > > > > On Mar 22, 2012, at 6:44 PM, 118 <ununocti...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Marsha, >> OK, I get it, so you mean finite. This is of course different from >> the "infinite" of the quote, but who knows if the translation is >> accurate. If the intent is to provide rhetoric meaning "a lot", then >> we can say that there are conditional codependent arising starting >> from some begining. The author does state "everything" so this would >> mean very numerable as you say (since there are only so many things). >> When one says "infinite" to a mathematician the quote would mean >> something completely different, that is "independent" of codependent >> arising. So, as we know the interpretation of the language is very >> important, and I agree with your interpretation here. >> >> On to my second question: What do you think is meant by "changing >> oneself"? Before you give me an answer, I can say that for me this >> would imply an independence from conditional codependent arising. For >> to change oneself suggests that there is something present which is >> free from the conditional background. Otherwise it would read as >> "being changed" rather than "changing oneself". Indeed, if there is a >> "power of man" it would be to be free from the deterministic >> progression of existence. This would also allow each man a "self" >> which could then be the part of the "everything which affects >> everything", rather than simply being the effect of something before. >> >> Of course I only have your quote to go on, so I am sure there is >> context within the body of that Nisargadatta work which would explain >> this. What the author would need to do is qualify the "changing >> oneself" so that it fits within the paradigm of codependent arising, >> if that is his belief. This author may not be a Buddhist in this >> annihilation of "self" sense (which is only one school of training), >> so perhaps that would answer some questions about the quote as well. >> >> It is nice to think that our actions make a difference, and that they >> may truly be “our actions” instead of some domino progression. >> >> Thank you for presenting this quote as a topic for discussion within >> MoQ dialogue. >> Mark >> >> On 3/22/12, MarshaV <val...@att.net> wrote: >>> Mark, >>> >>> I mean very numerable. >>> >>> >>> Marsha >>> >>> On Mar 22, 2012, at 2:37 PM, 118 <ununocti...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Marsha, >>>> Innumerable is pretty much the same thing, to me, so it also depends >>>> on how it is used. Do you mean "cannot be counted"? If it cannot be >>>> counted it cannot be defined, and we arrive at DQ which lies outside >>>> cause and effect. If it can be counted, then a better word would be >>>> "finite". >>>> >>>> From that quote below, the author speaks of "changing himself". >>>> Logically this form of change occurs outside of cause and effect as >>>> well. In this way the author is denying codependent arising. For >>>> "changing oneself" is like Immaculate Conception, something that does >>>> not abide by cause effect logic. >>>> >>>> Just wondering what your thoughts are on my opinions here. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Mark >>>> >>>> On 3/22/12, MarshaV <val...@att.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mark, >>>>> >>>>> It's a quote from Nisargadatta, I would have used the word 'innumerable'. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Marsha >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 22, 2012, at 1:30 PM, 118 <ununocti...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Marsha, >>>>>> One must be careful how one uses the term "infinite". It could suggest >>>>>> that "causes" do not exist. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent laboriously from an iPhone, >>>>>> Mark >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 22, 2012, at 12:58 AM, MarshaV <val...@att.net> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi David & Mark, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 21, 2012, at 7:46 PM, David Harding <davidjhard...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> David: >>>>>>>>>> So we just need to have a goal of DQ and not sq? So if I just have a >>>>>>>>>> goal of >>>>>>>>>> DQ, then I need not worry about the patterns I am creating? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Mark: >>>>>>>>> Not a goal of DQ, a goal of understanding. Why do you wish to learn >>>>>>>>> more about MoQ by participating in this forum? This is a serious >>>>>>>>> question, I just want to understand. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> David: >>>>>>>> Yes, to understand and in the process make myself a better person. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Here's something I like to consider: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Causes and results are infinite in number and variety. Everything >>>>>>> affects everything. In this universe, when one thing changes, >>>>>>> everything >>>>>>> changes. Hence the great power of man in changing the world by >>>>>>> changing >>>>>>> himself." >>>>>>> (Nisargadatta Maharaj) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Marsha >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>> Archives: >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>> Archives: >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>> >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>> Archives: >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
