Hi Marsha, Yes human, ever developing like everything else. Isn't it wonderful!
Sent laboriously from an iPhone, Mark On Mar 22, 2012, at 10:31 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi Mark, > > Yes, you've got it. It is cyclical for me. No sudden enlightenment. I seem > sometimes not to "get it" even when I have gotten it. Human, all too > human... > > > Marsha > > On Mar 23, 2012, at 1:07 AM, 118 <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi Marsha, >> >> Yes, I try to come to peace with what is. Often acceptance is the best way. >> With acceptance comes great freedom. But then I want to keep moving and so >> I dismiss acceptance and enter turmoil for a while. It is a cycle of pain, >> growth, peace, pain, growth, ... >> >> There is so much to contemplate, I wish I could live for a thousand years. >> I am sure I would stay dynamic. >> >> Alas... >> >> Sent laboriously from an iPhone, >> Mark >> >> On Mar 22, 2012, at 9:59 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >>> >>> Hi Mark, >>> >>> "Changing oneself " does seem a little paradoxical from one that does not >>> accept the conventional notion of a "self". Who'd be changing, and >>> changing what? To me that change, while not so easy, is not so >>> complicated. To me, that change is to know deeply "the way things are". >>> Not merely 'know intellectually', not merely 'know conceptually', not >>> merely know from what others have said, but to know first hand, to know >>> deeply and to have seen for yourself. Maybe the result might be, at the >>> very least, to be one less individual polluting reality with ignorance, >>> greed and anger. >>> >>> >>> Marsha >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 22, 2012, at 6:44 PM, 118 <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Marsha, >>>> OK, I get it, so you mean finite. This is of course different from >>>> the "infinite" of the quote, but who knows if the translation is >>>> accurate. If the intent is to provide rhetoric meaning "a lot", then >>>> we can say that there are conditional codependent arising starting >>>> from some begining. The author does state "everything" so this would >>>> mean very numerable as you say (since there are only so many things). >>>> When one says "infinite" to a mathematician the quote would mean >>>> something completely different, that is "independent" of codependent >>>> arising. So, as we know the interpretation of the language is very >>>> important, and I agree with your interpretation here. >>>> >>>> On to my second question: What do you think is meant by "changing >>>> oneself"? Before you give me an answer, I can say that for me this >>>> would imply an independence from conditional codependent arising. For >>>> to change oneself suggests that there is something present which is >>>> free from the conditional background. Otherwise it would read as >>>> "being changed" rather than "changing oneself". Indeed, if there is a >>>> "power of man" it would be to be free from the deterministic >>>> progression of existence. This would also allow each man a "self" >>>> which could then be the part of the "everything which affects >>>> everything", rather than simply being the effect of something before. >>>> >>>> Of course I only have your quote to go on, so I am sure there is >>>> context within the body of that Nisargadatta work which would explain >>>> this. What the author would need to do is qualify the "changing >>>> oneself" so that it fits within the paradigm of codependent arising, >>>> if that is his belief. This author may not be a Buddhist in this >>>> annihilation of "self" sense (which is only one school of training), >>>> so perhaps that would answer some questions about the quote as well. >>>> >>>> It is nice to think that our actions make a difference, and that they >>>> may truly be “our actions” instead of some domino progression. >>>> >>>> Thank you for presenting this quote as a topic for discussion within >>>> MoQ dialogue. >>>> Mark >>>> >>>> On 3/22/12, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> Mark, >>>>> >>>>> I mean very numerable. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Marsha >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 22, 2012, at 2:37 PM, 118 <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Marsha, >>>>>> Innumerable is pretty much the same thing, to me, so it also depends >>>>>> on how it is used. Do you mean "cannot be counted"? If it cannot be >>>>>> counted it cannot be defined, and we arrive at DQ which lies outside >>>>>> cause and effect. If it can be counted, then a better word would be >>>>>> "finite". >>>>>> >>>>>> From that quote below, the author speaks of "changing himself". >>>>>> Logically this form of change occurs outside of cause and effect as >>>>>> well. In this way the author is denying codependent arising. For >>>>>> "changing oneself" is like Immaculate Conception, something that does >>>>>> not abide by cause effect logic. >>>>>> >>>>>> Just wondering what your thoughts are on my opinions here. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Mark >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3/22/12, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mark, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It's a quote from Nisargadatta, I would have used the word >>>>>>> 'innumerable'. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Marsha >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 22, 2012, at 1:30 PM, 118 <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Marsha, >>>>>>>> One must be careful how one uses the term "infinite". It could suggest >>>>>>>> that "causes" do not exist. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent laboriously from an iPhone, >>>>>>>> Mark >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mar 22, 2012, at 12:58 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi David & Mark, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mar 21, 2012, at 7:46 PM, David Harding <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> David: >>>>>>>>>>>> So we just need to have a goal of DQ and not sq? So if I just have >>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> goal of >>>>>>>>>>>> DQ, then I need not worry about the patterns I am creating? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Mark: >>>>>>>>>>> Not a goal of DQ, a goal of understanding. Why do you wish to learn >>>>>>>>>>> more about MoQ by participating in this forum? This is a serious >>>>>>>>>>> question, I just want to understand. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> David: >>>>>>>>>> Yes, to understand and in the process make myself a better person. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Here's something I like to consider: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "Causes and results are infinite in number and variety. Everything >>>>>>>>> affects everything. In this universe, when one thing changes, >>>>>>>>> everything >>>>>>>>> changes. Hence the great power of man in changing the world by >>>>>>>>> changing >>>>>>>>> himself." >>>>>>>>> (Nisargadatta Maharaj) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Marsha >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>>> >>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>> Archives: >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>> Archives: >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>> >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>> Archives: >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
