Hi Mark, Yes, you've got it. It is cyclical for me. No sudden enlightenment. I seem sometimes not to "get it" even when I have gotten it. Human, all too human...
Marsha On Mar 23, 2012, at 1:07 AM, 118 <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Marsha, > > Yes, I try to come to peace with what is. Often acceptance is the best way. > With acceptance comes great freedom. But then I want to keep moving and so I > dismiss acceptance and enter turmoil for a while. It is a cycle of pain, > growth, peace, pain, growth, ... > > There is so much to contemplate, I wish I could live for a thousand years. I > am sure I would stay dynamic. > > Alas... > > Sent laboriously from an iPhone, > Mark > > On Mar 22, 2012, at 9:59 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> Hi Mark, >> >> "Changing oneself " does seem a little paradoxical from one that does not >> accept the conventional notion of a "self". Who'd be changing, and changing >> what? To me that change, while not so easy, is not so complicated. To me, >> that change is to know deeply "the way things are". Not merely 'know >> intellectually', not merely 'know conceptually', not merely know from what >> others have said, but to know first hand, to know deeply and to have seen >> for yourself. Maybe the result might be, at the very least, to be one less >> individual polluting reality with ignorance, greed and anger. >> >> >> Marsha >> >> >> >> On Mar 22, 2012, at 6:44 PM, 118 <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Marsha, >>> OK, I get it, so you mean finite. This is of course different from >>> the "infinite" of the quote, but who knows if the translation is >>> accurate. If the intent is to provide rhetoric meaning "a lot", then >>> we can say that there are conditional codependent arising starting >>> from some begining. The author does state "everything" so this would >>> mean very numerable as you say (since there are only so many things). >>> When one says "infinite" to a mathematician the quote would mean >>> something completely different, that is "independent" of codependent >>> arising. So, as we know the interpretation of the language is very >>> important, and I agree with your interpretation here. >>> >>> On to my second question: What do you think is meant by "changing >>> oneself"? Before you give me an answer, I can say that for me this >>> would imply an independence from conditional codependent arising. For >>> to change oneself suggests that there is something present which is >>> free from the conditional background. Otherwise it would read as >>> "being changed" rather than "changing oneself". Indeed, if there is a >>> "power of man" it would be to be free from the deterministic >>> progression of existence. This would also allow each man a "self" >>> which could then be the part of the "everything which affects >>> everything", rather than simply being the effect of something before. >>> >>> Of course I only have your quote to go on, so I am sure there is >>> context within the body of that Nisargadatta work which would explain >>> this. What the author would need to do is qualify the "changing >>> oneself" so that it fits within the paradigm of codependent arising, >>> if that is his belief. This author may not be a Buddhist in this >>> annihilation of "self" sense (which is only one school of training), >>> so perhaps that would answer some questions about the quote as well. >>> >>> It is nice to think that our actions make a difference, and that they >>> may truly be “our actions” instead of some domino progression. >>> >>> Thank you for presenting this quote as a topic for discussion within >>> MoQ dialogue. >>> Mark >>> >>> On 3/22/12, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> Mark, >>>> >>>> I mean very numerable. >>>> >>>> >>>> Marsha >>>> >>>> On Mar 22, 2012, at 2:37 PM, 118 <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Marsha, >>>>> Innumerable is pretty much the same thing, to me, so it also depends >>>>> on how it is used. Do you mean "cannot be counted"? If it cannot be >>>>> counted it cannot be defined, and we arrive at DQ which lies outside >>>>> cause and effect. If it can be counted, then a better word would be >>>>> "finite". >>>>> >>>>> From that quote below, the author speaks of "changing himself". >>>>> Logically this form of change occurs outside of cause and effect as >>>>> well. In this way the author is denying codependent arising. For >>>>> "changing oneself" is like Immaculate Conception, something that does >>>>> not abide by cause effect logic. >>>>> >>>>> Just wondering what your thoughts are on my opinions here. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Mark >>>>> >>>>> On 3/22/12, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Mark, >>>>>> >>>>>> It's a quote from Nisargadatta, I would have used the word 'innumerable'. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Marsha >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 22, 2012, at 1:30 PM, 118 <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Marsha, >>>>>>> One must be careful how one uses the term "infinite". It could suggest >>>>>>> that "causes" do not exist. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent laboriously from an iPhone, >>>>>>> Mark >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 22, 2012, at 12:58 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi David & Mark, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mar 21, 2012, at 7:46 PM, David Harding <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> David: >>>>>>>>>>> So we just need to have a goal of DQ and not sq? So if I just have a >>>>>>>>>>> goal of >>>>>>>>>>> DQ, then I need not worry about the patterns I am creating? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Mark: >>>>>>>>>> Not a goal of DQ, a goal of understanding. Why do you wish to learn >>>>>>>>>> more about MoQ by participating in this forum? This is a serious >>>>>>>>>> question, I just want to understand. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> David: >>>>>>>>> Yes, to understand and in the process make myself a better person. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Here's something I like to consider: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Causes and results are infinite in number and variety. Everything >>>>>>>> affects everything. In this universe, when one thing changes, >>>>>>>> everything >>>>>>>> changes. Hence the great power of man in changing the world by >>>>>>>> changing >>>>>>>> himself." >>>>>>>> (Nisargadatta Maharaj) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Marsha >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>> Archives: >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>> >>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>> Archives: >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>> Archives: >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
