Andre, I am not presenting any statements about meditation or zazen, which I consider and experience as a different set of techniques/practices. Mindfulness to me is a more active process, such as chopping wood, carrying water, painting or washing dishes, but as a direct experience prior to conceptions and the twin reification of 'self' and other. I speak from my experiences, not as an expert. So as I stated, for me there is no 'I' in mindfulness.
There are many different types of meditation. I use primarily two: concentration on breath and watching thoughts pass through mind without attachment. I am no "expert" in either. They are practices. Should we trade bibliographies? I can offer a list of very insightful books, starting with 'SELF, NO SELF?: Perspectives from Analytical, Phenomenological, & Indian Traditions' edited by Mark Sideris, Even Thompson and Dan Zahavi, and 'ANALYTICAL BUDDHISM: The Two-Tiered Illusion of Self' by Miri Albahari. There's a long list that I can suggest for you. Will you read them? Btw, I have read Patanjali, many times. I was training to become a yoga teacher and his text was required reading. Marsha On Apr 22, 2012, at 4:41 AM, Andre <[email protected]> wrote: > Marsha to Andre: > > In my experience, mindfulness is direct experience prior to conceptions and > the twin reification of 'self' and other. But perhaps you want a Buddhist's > conventional (relative) truth, such as a 'self' which doesn't have any real > existence? No. My sentence stands as written. > > Andre: > Traleg Rinpoche: > "In the Buddha's early discourses on the Four Noble Truths, the Noble > Eightfold Path begins with the cultivation of the correct view...Without a > conceptual framework, meditative experiences would be totally > incomprehensible. What we experience in meditation has to be properly > interpreted, and its significance-or lack thereof-has to be understood. This > interpretive act requires appropriate conceptual categories and the correct > use of those categories... . > While we are often told that meditation is about emptying the mind, that it > is the discursive, agitated thoughts of our mind that keeps us trapped in > false appearances, meditative experiences are in fact impossible without the > use of conceptual formulations... ." > > As the Kagyu master Jamgon Kongtrul Lodro Thaye sang: > "The one who meditates without the view > Is like a blind man wandering the plains...". > > Marsha: > I have nothing to say about your experience of mindfulness, but I would like > you to present evidence of what you say the perennial philosophers say > regarding mindfulness with or without a self. Your saying that they dispute > my claims doesn't make it true that they really do. Can you provide some > quotes? > > Andre: > You should be so lucky and I should be so stupid? This would take some time > to compile. I can provide you with dozens of quotes but, given your past > performance on this discuss with such 'evidence' you'll turn around and > suggest they are 'only opinions'. > > I suggest you start reading Patanjali re the Nirmanakaya, Kirpal Singh re the > Sambhogakaya and the Dharmakaya and then move on to the Svabhavikakaya. These > various 'levels' (to be understood in terms of Zen's "Gateless Gate' analogy, > see Annotn 69) have been described by many people from different backgrounds > and perspectives. Think, among many others, of Krisnamurti, St. John of the > Cross, Meister Eckart, Teresa of Avile, Ramana Maharshi, Aurobindo, Hui Neng, > Benoit, and lets not forget Robert M. Pirsig! > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
