[Ron] I agree, 9 out of 10 times the accusation is an agenda advancing move, and more than likely this criticism is generated from a similar move to advance a particular position.
[Arlo] I see nothing being advanced but Pirsig's ideas. I can see how Gnostic Christianity, as with any mystic spirituality with its emphasis on metaphor, analogy and the esoteric, may be as appealing to some as the Tao, Zen and Buddhism (with similar emphases) may be to others. And if those stories work as a pointer for some, like a good story is designed, then great. But I think when you confuse the story-as-literal with the story-as-analogy you've fallen in the very trap that Pirsig's ideas warn against. As I said, its like a welder condemning non-welders for not welding, because, you know, welding is the path to Quality. Its like a welder complaining that people in the forum do not use the term "Arc" instead of "Dynamic Quality" or "weld metal" instead of "static quality" (welders, don't hold me to this analogy). Its confusing a specific painting with 'art', and I'd be hesitant to believe that a true mystic, a true gnostic, would make this mistake. [Ron] I think what is being sought is a contextual connection between their inherited faith values and their intellectual values and they see RMP as offering that. [Arlo] If RMP offers a connection here, its in moving away from limiting static patterns and towards the mystic, Dynamic, undefined. And when that happens, static labels like "Christian" become meaningless. In a Campbellian manner, its moving away from belief in one mythology to an inquiry into bridges that span the global, historic act of mythologizing. Its moving away from 'being a mechanic' into inquiring about the common apprehensions that bridge welding, painting, music, dance, literature, cooking, model railroading, camping, biology reseach, yoga and putting together a rotisserie. And at that level words like "arc" and "weld metal" become constrained. [Ron] The resolve between being a christian and still being able to be a critical thinker is an important one that formally had it's foundation in Platonism. [Arlo] One more reason to step back, as Pirsig did, to the sophists that pre-dated Plato. Do you think a sophist would have this problem? Doubtful. The stories of the Occident become simply one more set of stories in the grand tapestry of human mythology. This is why you never see anyone here have to resolve being a Buddhist and being a critical thinker, or practicing Zen student and being a critical thinker, because those who find value in those stories know they are just stories and identity isn't caught up in a particular set of static patterns of value. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
