On Apr 2, 2013, at 7:12 PM, david buchanan <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >> From: [email protected] >> Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 13:18:07 -0400 >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [MD] perceptions >> >> >> Marsha: >> Though, I wonder why you put perceptions (sensual experience) in with >> concepts (linguistic experience) and assign them both as intellectualizing. >> I thought you associated intellectualizing with language. Perception >> (sensual experience) does not require language. imho. > Marsha said: > In mindful awareness (mindfulness) one drops the narration (language) > function for a more perceptual (immediate) experience, but there is still > pattern identification in differentiating shapes, smells, sounds, tastes and > touch. The differentiating doesn't disappear with language. The > differentiating is there with perceiving too. > > > dmb replied: > > "Quality is shapeless, formless, indescribable. To see shapes and forms is to > intellectualize. Quality is independent of any such shapes and forms. The > names, the shapes and forms we give Quality depend only partly on the > Quality. They also depend partly on the a priori images we have accumulated > in our memory. We constantly seek to find, in the Quality event, analogues to > our previous experiences. If we didn't we'd be unable to act. We build up our > language in terms of these analogues." > > > > Marsha replied: > Yes! > > [And then later] > > Though, I wonder why you put perceptions (sensual experience) in with > concepts (linguistic experience) and assign them both as intellectualizing. I > thought you associated intellectualizing with language. Perception (sensual > experience) does not require language. imho. > > > > dmb says: > Well, those are Pirsig's words. Notice the quotation marks? It's Pirsig who > put perceptions in with concepts and describes them both as > intellectualizing. > > Since I posted the quote to show how your view is at odds with Pirsig's, your > initial response ("Yes!") told me that you did not see the contradiction. But > now you do. > > Differentiations of any kind are static and so "mindful awareness" - as you > describe it - is not Dynamic experience. It's just intellectual in a less > abstract, more rudimentary way. Unlike the naive realist, who thinks the > "things" in the world are simply given to the senses, Pirsig and many other > philosophers know that our perceptions are profoundly shaped by concepts. Marsha: My yes had to do with DQ being undifferentiated. And I never thought mindful awareness was Dynamic Quality. Quite the contrary, I've called DQ undifferentiated, or unpatterned, not mindfulness. I practice a mindfulness in action; I know what it is and it isn't undifferentiated. That was the point of my original post. Mindfulness might be selfless, but it not undifferentiated. I asked you about language. I thought y-o-u had intellectualizing associated strictly with language. > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
