Adrie said to dmb: Honesty is undefinable, (inaccessible) etc.. Under the phrase "qualitas occulta" and his concluding formula Nietzsche is saying that Honesty is unknowable, undefinable, etc.,........it will outrun every definition. Nietzsche said, "...Finally we formulate from them a qualitas occulta which has the name 'honesty.' We obtain the concept, as we do the form, by overlooking what is individual and actual; whereas nature is acquainted with no forms and no concepts, and likewise with no species, but only with an X which remains inaccessible and undefinable for us."
dmb says: I think we can equate the Nietzsche quote with the quote from Pirsig and James. He's elaborating on the same discrepancy between static concepts and dynamic reality. I think it sheds like on the MOQ's central distinction, the one between static patterns and Dynamic Quality. It's not that the concept of "honesty" is unknowable and undefinable but rather the particular and concrete "nature" from which this concept is derived. Where Nietzsche says, "nature is acquainted with no forms and no concepts," Pirsig says "reality ...is dynamic and flowing" and says the primary empirical reality (DQ) is the pre-intellectual experience as such. The “qualitas occulta” or "hidden quality" refers to "overlooking" or hiding “what is individual and actual” in order to derive a general concept, an abstraction that can be applied as we continue to experience "reality" or “nature,” as Nietzsche says. Just as Pirsig's DQ is prior to all concepts, Nietzsche says “nature is acquainted with no forms and no concepts". "There must always be a discrepancy between concepts and reality, because the former are static and discontinuous while the latter is dynamic and flowing." -- Robert Pirsig quoting William James A word (concept or static pattern), Nietzsche says, "owes its origin" to dynamic nature but it is "not supposed to serve as a reminder of the unique and entirely original experience" but rather it "has to fit countless more or less similar cases". Concepts are good and useful ways to sort experience or classify certain salient features of nature but they can never capture it. Something is always left out, it always outruns our definitions, as you said. I think this is what Pirsig was getting at when he quoted Thoreau or Emerson saying that whenever you gain something you also lose something. And then there is Pirsig's repeated insistence that we need both, we need concepts and reality.... "Life can't exist on Dynamic Quality alone. It has no staying power. To cling to Dynamic Quality alone apart from any static patterns is to cling to chaos." "The Metaphysics of Quality itself is static and should be separated from the Dynamic Quality it talks about. Like the rest of the printed philosophic tradition it doesn't change from day to day, although the world it talks about does. ...The static language of the Metaphysics of Quality will never capture the Dynamic reality of the world but some fingers point better than others and as the world changes, old pointers and road maps tend to lose their value." There are similarities between chess and philosophy, Pirsig says. "Both are highly intellectual pursuits in which one tries to manipulate symbols within a set of rules to improve a given situation. In chess one can benefit greatly by studying the games of the masters. In philosophy one can also benefit greatly by studying the writings of the great philosophers. But the important point here is that studying chess masters is not chess itself and studying philosophy masters is not philosophy itself. The real chess is the game you play with your neighbor. Real chess is 'muddling through.' Real chess is the triumph of mental organization over complex experience. And so is real philosophy." And - for anyone who missed it - here is the Nietzsche quote we're comparing to Pirsig and James: "Every word instantly becomes a concept precisely insofar as it is not supposed to serve as a reminder of the unique and entirely individual original experience to which it owes its origin; but rather, a word becomes a concept insofar as it simultaneously has to fit countless more or less similar cases—which means, purely and simply, cases which are never equal and thus altogether unequal. Every concept arises from the equation of unequal things. Just as it is certain that one leaf is never totally the same as another, so it is certain that the concept "leaf" is formed by arbitrarily discarding these individual differences and by forgetting the distinguishing aspects. This awakens the idea that, in addition to the leaves, there exists in nature the "leaf": the original model according to which all the leaves were perhaps woven, sketched, measured, colored, curled, and painted—but by incompetent hands, so that no specimen has turned out to be a correct, trustworthy, and faithful likeness of the original model. We call a person "honest," and then we ask "why has he behaved so honestly today?" Our usual answer is, "on account of his honesty." Honesty! This in turn means that the leaf is the cause of the leaves. We know nothing whatsoever about an essential quality called "honesty"; but we do know of countless individualized and consequently unequal actions which we equate by omitting the aspects in which they are unequal and which we now designate as "honest" actions. Finally we formulate from them a qualitas occulta which has the name "honesty." We obtain the concept, as we do the form, by overlooking what is individual and actual; whereas nature is acquainted with no forms and no concepts, and likewise with no species, but only with an X which remains inaccessible and undefinable for us. For even our contrast between individual and species is something anthropomorphic and does not originate in the essence of things; although we should not presume to claim that this contrast does not correspond to the essence of things: that would of course be a dogmatic assertion and, as such, would be just as indemonstrable as its opposite." — Friedrich Nietzsche Thanks, dmb Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
