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From: Jan Anders Andersson <[email protected]>
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Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 22:52:20 +0200
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Adrie
I fully agree in that about Dmb's statement. Anyone in for an intellectual T=
ango?
But Duvel triple? I know it, it's a fine drink, but I can't find it on the l=
ist: http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/top-50/
Cheers (Rosemount, Shiraz, 1994)
Jan-Anders
27 apr 2013 kl. 22:13 skrev ADRIE KINTZIGER <[email protected]>:
> David Buchanan
> " intellectual values are values in and of themselves. You don't arrive at=
> them by some other species of value"
>=20
>=20
> Adrie
> this statement will go to my son by e-mail David.This is what Pirsig is
> meaning to say,when he states " it arrived at me in a dynamical way"
>=20
> One day long time ago, a patent office clerck was kinda bored with reality=
> as whe know it, and took a white sheet approach, an empty sheet approach o=
n
> gravity,relativity,time,speed, etc, and wrote out the complete special
> relativity theory, and general relativity.
> none of the facts were derived from value's, none of the value's were
> derived from facts.At first , there was nothing, after this ,it was all
> there.
> It seems to be so that it arrived at him in a dynamical way.
> Until today, what he wrote down,then, is neatly in congruence with quantum=
> physiks.Every day further evidence is found that reality can be derived
> from intellect,before reality itself became a factual entity.
>=20
> duvel tripel hop 9.5 =C2=B0, best beer in the world
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> 2013/4/27 david buchanan <[email protected]>
>=20
>>=20
>> Dan said:
>> ...Remember, ideas are patterns of value. Morals and quality are
>> synonymous in the MOQ. I doubt anyone here only keeps an eye on logical
>> consistency. But if a contributor consistently contradicts themselves it
>> points to a lack of quality.
>>=20
>>=20
>> David H replied:
>> I agree here. But why is there a lack of quality? Why does a contributor,=
>> in your eyes, consistently contradict themselves? That's what I'm pointin=
g
>> towards. Everyone has different values. So at some time or another - no
>> matter who you discuss anything with you will at some stage come upon a
>> disagreement. They value something which you don't which causes them to
>> deem their words with coherence, and you the opposite. ...If your values
>> are better than mine - why is that? Or are there other values which are
>> better? Why do you have the values which you do? Why do you deem them of
>> value? We live in a society today where people are almost frightened of
>> openly discussing their values and morals for fear of offending or
>> appearing insensitive. But the values/morals of the participants in a
>> discussion are not irrelevant and to be actively avoided (as is
>> traditionally thought) - but are the *most* important part of a
>> philosophical discussion.
>>=20
>> dmb says:
>> I can see that you're trying to hook up values and intellect, even saying=
>> that values are the MOST important part of a philosophical discussion. An=
d
>> yet there is still a SOMish separation implied in what you're saying. Thi=
s
>> is contained in the questions you pose; everybody has different values, y=
ou
>> say, which causes us to disagree about what is and is not coherent. If yo=
ur
>> values are better than mine, why is that? This implies that the meaning=
>> of logical consistency differs from person to person, that the distinctio=
n
>> between coherence and incoherence is just a matter of one's personal
>> feelings and attitudes. It just doesn't work like that, David. It's not a=
s
>> if each individual has their own private mythos or that each person is a
>> culture of one, an isolated individual with no real way to communicate wi=
th
>> another soul, excepts as two ships passing the night. That kind of
>> solipsistic alienation is what you get with SOM, wherein each individual
>> has her own way of representing
>> reality. But in the MOQ, we are composed of the static patterns of our
>> time and culture and language. Marsha is not from some other place or tim=
e.
>> She speaks English (sort of) and lives in the 21st century West, just lik=
e
>> everybody else here.
>>=20
>> But the thing is, as people keep saying to you repeatedly, intellectual
>> values are values in and of themselves. You don't arrive at them by way o=
f
>> some other species of value. I mean, health is a biological good, fame an=
d
>> fortune are social level values, while truth is what's good and right
>> intellectually. Again, in the MOQ intellectual quality is the highest for=
m
>> of value, the most moral. This is protected in the MOQ's moral codes and
>> it's supposed to be protected in the Bill of Rights. This is supposed to b=
e
>> an evolutionary advance over social level morality - what usually counts a=
s
>> morality in the church, as well as the over the worship of fame and
>> fortune. Intellectual level morals are even opposed to these lower level i=
n
>> very important ways.
>>=20
>> Long story short, intellect is not the enemy. SOM and amoral objectivity
>> is the enemy. And those are two very different things.
>>=20
>> And then there is the distinction between concepts and reality, the
>> difference between a knowable, definable metaphysical system and the
>> reality (the undefinable Quality) that it talks about.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>> Archives:
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> parser
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
--Apple-Mail-62F11998-114B-427B-BE23-7175CA179B40
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div style=3D"-webkit-text-size-adjust: aut=
o; ">Adrie</div><div style=3D"-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; "><br></div><d=
iv style=3D"-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; ">I fully agree in that about Dm=
b's statement. Anyone in for an intellectual Tango?</div><div style=3D"-webk=
it-text-size-adjust: auto; "><br></div><div style=3D"-webkit-text-size-adjus=
t: auto; ">But Duvel triple? I know it, it's a fine drink, but I can't find i=
t on the list: <span style=3D"font-size: 15px; line-height: 19px; white=
-space: nowrap; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -we=
bkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composit=
ion-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); -webkit-text-size-adjust: non=
e; "><a href=3D"http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/top-50/";>http://www.ratebeer.co=
m/beer/top-50/</a></span></div><div style=3D"-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;=
"><span style=3D"font-size: 15px; line-height: 19px; white-space: nowrap; -=
webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-=
fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: r=
gba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); -webkit-text-size-adjust: none; "><br></span></=
div><div><span style=3D"font-size: 15px; line-height: 19px; white-space: now=
rap; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-compos=
ition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-c=
olor: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">Cheers (Rosemount, Shiraz, 1994)</span>=
</div><div><span style=3D"font-size: 15px; line-height: 19px; white-space: n=
owrap; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-comp=
osition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame=
-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"=
font-size: 15px; line-height: 19px; white-space: nowrap; -webkit-tap-highlig=
ht-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(1=
75, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180,=
0.230469);">Jan-Anders</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size: 15px; lin=
e-height: 19px; white-space: nowrap; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 2=
6, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.2304=
69); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);"><br></s=
pan></div><div><span style=3D"font-size: 15px; line-height: 19px; white-spac=
e: nowrap; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-=
composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-f=
rame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);"><br></span></div><div style=3D"-w=
ebkit-text-size-adjust: auto; ">27 apr 2013 kl. 22:13 skrev ADRIE KINTZIGER &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a>>:<br><b=
r></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; "=
><div><span>David Buchanan</span><br><span>" intellectual values are values i=
n and of themselves. You don't arrive at</span><br><span>them by some other s=
pecies of value"</span><br><span></span><br><span></span><br><span>Adrie</sp=
an><br><span>this statement will go to my son by e-mail David.This is what P=
irsig is</span><br><span>meaning to say,when he states " it arrived at me in=
a dynamical way"</span><br><span></span><br><span>One day long time ago, a p=
atent office clerck was kinda bored with reality</span><br><span>as whe know=
it, and took a white sheet approach, an empty sheet approach on</span><br><=
span>gravity,relativity,time,speed, etc, and wrote out the complete special<=
/span><br><span>relativity theory, and general relativity.</span><br><span>n=
one of the facts were derived from value's, none of the value's were</span><=
br><span>derived from facts.At first , there was nothing, after this ,it was=
all</span><br><span>there.</span><br><span>It seems to be so that it arrive=
d at him in a dynamical way.</span><br><span>Until today, what he wrote down=
,then, is neatly in congruence with quantum</span><br><span>physiks.Every da=
y further evidence is found that reality can be derived</span><br><span>from=
intellect,before reality itself became a factual entity.</span><br><span></=
span><br><span>duvel tripel hop 9.5 =C2=B0, best beer in the world</span><br=
><span></span><br><span></span><br><span></span><br><span></span><br><span><=
/span><br><span>2013/4/27 david buchanan <<a href=3D"mailto:dmbuchanan@ho=
tmail.com">[email protected]</a>></span><br><span></span><br><blockq=
uote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><=
span>Dan said:</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>...Rem=
ember, ideas are patterns of value. Morals and quality are</span><br></block=
quote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>synonymous in the MOQ. I doubt anyone h=
ere only keeps an eye on logical</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"=
cite"><span>consistency. But if a contributor consistently contradicts thems=
elves it</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>points to a l=
ack of quality.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></spa=
n><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><=
blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>David H replied:</span><br></blockquote><bloc=
kquote type=3D"cite"><span>I agree here. But why is there a lack of quality?=
Why does a contributor,</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><s=
pan>in your eyes, consistently contradict themselves? That's what I'm pointi=
ng</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>towards. Eve=
ryone has different values. So at some time or another - no</span><br></bloc=
kquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>matter who you discuss anything with y=
ou will at some stage come upon a</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><span>disagreement. They value something which you don't which c=
auses them to</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>deem th=
eir words with coherence, and you the opposite. ...If your values</span><br>=
</blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>are better than mine - why is t=
hat? Or are there other values which are</span><br></blockquote><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><span>better? Why do you have the values which you do? Why do y=
ou deem them of</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>value=
? We live in a society today where people are almost frightened of</sp=
an><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>openly discussing their v=
alues and morals for fear of offending or</span><br></blockquote><blockquote=
type=3D"cite"><span>appearing insensitive. But the values/morals of t=
he participants in a</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>=
discussion are not irrelevant and to be actively avoided (as is</span><br></=
blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>traditionally thought) - but are t=
he *most* important part of a</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cit=
e"><span>philosophical discussion.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>dmb say=
s:</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>I can see that you=
're trying to hook up values and intellect, even saying</span><br></blockquo=
te><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>that values are the MOST important part o=
f a philosophical discussion. And</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><span>yet there is still a SOMish separation implied in what you're s=
aying. This</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>is contai=
ned in the questions you pose; everybody has different values, you</span><br=
></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>say, which causes us to disagr=
ee about what is and is not coherent. If your</span><br></blockquote><blockq=
uote type=3D"cite"><span>values are better than mine, why is that? &nb=
sp;This implies that the meaning</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"=
cite"><span>of logical consistency differs from person to person, that the d=
istinction</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>between co=
herence and incoherence is just a matter of one's personal</span><br></block=
quote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>feelings and attitudes. It just doesn'=
t work like that, David. It's not as</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=
=3D"cite"><span>if each individual has their own private mythos or that each=
person is a</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>culture o=
f one, an isolated individual with no real way to communicate with</span><br=
></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>another soul, excepts as two s=
hips passing the night. That kind of</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=
=3D"cite"><span>solipsistic alienation is what you get with SOM, wherein eac=
h individual</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>has her o=
wn way of representing</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><spa=
n> reality. But in the MOQ, we are composed of the static patterns of our</s=
pan><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>time and culture and la=
nguage. Marsha is not from some other place or time.</span><br></blockquote>=
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>She speaks English (sort of) and lives in th=
e 21st century West, just like</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"ci=
te"><span>everybody else here.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"ci=
te"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>But the th=
ing is, as people keep saying to you repeatedly, intellectual</span><br></bl=
ockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>values are values in and of themsel=
ves. You don't arrive at them by way of</span><br></blockquote><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><span>some other species of value. I mean, health is a biologic=
al good, fame and</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>for=
tune are social level values, while truth is what's good and right</span><br=
></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>intellectually. Again, in the M=
OQ intellectual quality is the highest form</span><br></blockquote><blockquo=
te type=3D"cite"><span>of value, the most moral. This is protected in the MO=
Q's moral codes and</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>i=
t's supposed to be protected in the Bill of Rights. This is supposed to be</=
span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>an evolutionary advanc=
e over social level morality - what usually counts as</span><br></blockquote=
><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>morality in the church, as well as the over=
the worship of fame and</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><s=
pan>fortune. Intellectual level morals are even opposed to these lower level=
in</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>very important wa=
ys.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br></bloc=
kquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>Long story short, intellect is not th=
e enemy. SOM and amoral objectivity</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><span>is the enemy. And those are two very different things.</span><b=
r></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><bloc=
kquote type=3D"cite"><span>And then there is the distinction between concept=
s and reality, the</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>di=
fference between a knowable, definable metaphysical system and the</span><br=
></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>reality (the undefinable Quali=
ty) that it talks about.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><s=
pan></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br></blo=
ckquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span><=
/span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br></blockquo=
te><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></span>=
<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>Moq_Discuss mailing list</s=
pan><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>Listinfo, Unsubscribing=
etc.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span><a href=3D"http=
://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org">http://lists.moqt=
alk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org</a></span><br></blockquote><blo=
ckquote type=3D"cite"><span>Archives:</span><br></blockquote><blockquote typ=
e=3D"cite"><span><a href=3D"http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-m=
oqtalk.org/">http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/</a>=
</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span><a href=3D"http://mo=
q.org/md/archives.html">http://moq.org/md/archives.html</a></span><br></bloc=
kquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><span></span>=
<br><span></span><br><span></span><br><span>-- </span><br><span>parser</span=
><br><span>Moq_Discuss mailing list</span><br><span>Listinfo, Unsubscribing e=
tc.</span><br><span><a href=3D"http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_dis=
cuss-moqtalk.org">http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.=
org</a></span><br><span>Archives:</span><br><span><a href=3D"http://lists.mo=
qtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/">http://lists.moqtalk.org/piper=
mail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/</a></span><br><span><a href=3D"http://moq.org/=
md/archives.html">http://moq.org/md/archives.html</a></span><br></div></bloc=
kquote></body></html>=
--Apple-Mail-62F11998-114B-427B-BE23-7175CA179B40--
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Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
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