Marsha to Andre:
Andre, whose guns do you stick to?
Andre:
That's not the point Marsha and you know it. I am not making the claims
you make!
When you are constantly trying to undermine the MoQ by appeals to
vipassana experiences, seeing bits and pieces of your self floating by,
living in the now and repeating again and again that all is emptiness
anyway(so why bother) no wonder I find your hypothetical statement about
YOUR experience trumping explanation odd, to say the least.
Your response above is just another cowardly Lucy action.
dmb responded:
There are countless ways to cultivate that of presence of mind and it's clear that Pirsig
is recommending a Zen-like identification with the task at hand - but it's weird that
Marsha thinks her experience "trumps the explanation". The most obvious reason
why this can't be true is that there is no way for anyone to examine Marsha's experience.
We can only examine her explanation of that experience. When that explanation is placed
next to Pirsig's explanation it's quite easy to see that Marsha has a lot of explaining
to do.
Andre:
Exactly. And that is what she fails do, over and over again. She suggested in
an earlier post she's not interested in Wilber which is a shame because I find
his 'model' pertinently applicable here. Especially the part where he suggests
that first person (interior) experiences are fine (his 'upper left' quadrant)
but there is also the 'lower left quadrant' referring to the
cultural-collective (interior) experiences. This involves communication,
dialogue with people cultivating similar techniques to achieve similar
experiences. It is a safeguard to becoming a culture of one, or becoming
grandioze in your understanding of your own experience.
The Buddhists have the sangha of course, the community of people following
buddhist practices sharing with eachother their experiences and thoughts. It's
a way of reaching a 'higher', a better understanding of one's own first person
experiences. A sort of 'transcending' of one's egocentric self-understanding,
-interpretation and -explanation.
Tradesmen and professionals wanting to improve their knowledge and skills to
work on their respective cycles meet and share information and insights on a
daily basis. If I want to improve my cooking skills I do not go to a lawyer. I
meet cooks and read books on the subject preferably in the kitchen for
immediate application and experimentation.
Needles to say Marsha simply refuses to do this. As matter of fact, she's in
the wrong kitchen all together but she simply doesn't realise this either.
dmb:
Did somebody say something about missing the point?
Andre:
My point exactly.
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