John to Andre (arguing that intellectual patterns do not compete with
social patterns and never have):
I would say I have a good understanding of the confusion generated by
the MoQ on this subject.
Andre:
The (your) 'confusion' is 'generated by the MoQ'?? Pirsig advances
numerous examples of this struggle for domination John. LILA is full of
them. It seems a waste of time to present them to you as many have
already been given. And you come across them in everyday experience.
John:
I stand by my assertion that all competition is social.
Andre:
Actually, the MoQ identifies five moral codes establishing the
competition of supremacy over it's lower 'host'. 'What was emerging was
that the static patterns that hold one level of organization together
are often the same patterns that another level of organization must
fight to maintain its own existence' (LILA p 167).
Read this a dozen times John. Maybe you'll get it...eventually. This
'fight to maintain its own existence'..this 'competition'(as you call
it) is what is called evolution...the dance of Lila. It is not confined
to just one level. It is an ongoing 'process'.
John:
I don't see how you can get around that. But I note that you don't
really try.
Andre:
It appears to me that it is a waste of time to show you otherwise. I
could ask you to read LILA again but who knows how many eyes start
rolling. Perhaps Ian's again?
John:
"Things beyond" do not compete, they dominate.
Andre:
Or they do not. And this 'domination' is not characterized by anything?
I mean, it just sits there doing nothing but 'dominate'? There is
constant competition to dominate John... at all levels.
John:
...but intellect alone does nothing but analyze and philosophize.
Andre:
The entire scientific endeavor has turned into an analytical philosophy?
John:
There are societies which hold intellect as a very high value and there
are societies that hold "the will of allah" as a very high value and
these societies can be seen as intellect vs. society because that's the
labels on the flags they fly. But this is not the same as intellectual
forces struggling with social forces -...
Andre:
They are in conflict with them John. Intellectual patterns are in
conflict with any notion of unquestioned (social/religious) dogma be it
god, allah, intelligent design...you name it. It's a battle and an
ongoing battle. In my previous post I gave plenty of examples but you
just dismiss them out of hand.
John:
I'm saying that every human is composed of 4 levels...Phaedrus's
conflicts and harmonies with Lila were not levels clashing, they were
people clashing.
Andre:
Read this again John...the way I cut up your paragraph...and yes, let
the eyes roll...! Do you NOT see how silly and contradictory this
statement is? 'People' are the patterns John. LILA is an exposition of
the battles between patterns of evolution. They're given names. 'And
all these battles between patterns of evolution go on within suffering
individuals like Lila. And Lila's battle is everybody's battle, you
know?' (LILA, pp 367-8)
Tell me John, from your perspective, do you believe that there is a
somebody, a self, a person apart from these patterns?
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