On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 8:15 AM, david <[email protected]> wrote:
> John said to Andre: > ...I do not agree there is competition between the levels. I certainly > don't see, for instance, how inorganic and organic patterns can in any way > compete. But rather than trying to support Pirsig by quoting Pirsig, why > can't you support Pirsig with real, experiential examples of what you say? > Where on earth has any intellectual pattern, all by itself, competed with > a pure social pattern? Ideas don't compete - people with ideas compete and > people are a combination of all the levels, not just isolated intellect. > An intellectual is not an intellect. > > > dmb says: > Nobody thinks that a "pattern, all by itself" does anything. That's a > ridiculous distortion of the concept. > J: I agree. It's a ridiculous idea. Which is why I have a hard time thinking a level, all by itself, competes with another level. When you think about what the levels are, in experience, it's impossible to reconcile. dmb: > But what's really disturbing here, John, is that you are demanding "real, > experiential examples" after they have already been supplied in abundance. > Pirsig's examples come from the conflicts that span the whole history of > the 20th century. You can find examples of this social-intellectual > conflict in the newspaper every single day. The distinction between > biological values, social values and intellectual values was already clear > in Plato's time. But I already said all this and apparently you just don't > care. > J: I care, Dave. I just want to make a point that seems silly, because it's so obvious, but the patterns only compete within an individual's mental choices. Once they are put into action, they are all, at least somewhat, social. Social patterns only compete with intellectual patterns when they pull an individual attention toward one direction or another. If that person decides to be more intellect-oriented, he's going to have to find a society, in order for that intellect to have any reality. Thus all competition is necessarily social in nature, and intellect does not get involved in taking sides. Intellect seeks for what is, and what is true. Truth is intellect's highest value. Celebrity is social's. Truth and Celebrity don't compete, they obviate one another. Some truths compete with other truths to be more true and some laws compete with other laws to be more binding but the only way the levels can interact is in a social matrix through individuals. I don't think Pirsig said that, but I do think he writings support the idea that the levels are mostly disrete. That means non-interacting. dmb: > > If you're going to be like that, why would anyone bother trying to > communicate with you? It's pointless, like screaming at a guy with no ears. > It's like you WANT to be confused and nobody is going to stand in the way > of that mission. It's bizarre. > > > Well, I don't want to be confusing but I must be because you sure are confused about what I'm talking about. I know it's hard for you to switch gears, dave, and actually think for a change rather than spout dogma and I feel bad but I don't know how to help you. It's obvious that the levels interact in a social matrix because they are human - beings that are biological are not intellectual. And humans communicate and interact, so the problem with making "social patterns" a matter of derogation is an absurd choice. The job of intellect is to help make a better society, in the end, or it dies. An intellectual pattern that competes with a social pattern is as stupid as a man who competes with his food. But then that's probably not a help analogy because you are that kind of guy, the way you have treated people here over the years... and poor Marsha. Tsk. Lila didn't know he was here. She was sound asleep, apparently in some fearful dream. In the darkness he heard a grating sound of her teeth and felt her body suddenly turn as she struggled against some menace only she could see. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
