John said to Andre:
...I do not agree there is competition between the levels. I certainly don't
see, for instance, how inorganic and organic patterns can in any way compete.
But rather than trying to support Pirsig by quoting Pirsig, why can't you
support Pirsig with real, experiential examples of what you say? Where on
earth has any intellectual pattern, all by itself, competed with a pure social
pattern? Ideas don't compete - people with ideas compete and people are a
combination of all the levels, not just isolated intellect. An intellectual is
not an intellect.
dmb says:
Nobody thinks that a "pattern, all by itself" does anything. That's a
ridiculous distortion of the concept.
But what's really disturbing here, John, is that you are demanding "real,
experiential examples" after they have already been supplied in abundance.
Pirsig's examples come from the conflicts that span the whole history of the
20th century. You can find examples of this social-intellectual conflict in the
newspaper every single day. The distinction between biological values, social
values and intellectual values was already clear in Plato's time. But I already
said all this and apparently you just don't care.
If you're going to be like that, why would anyone bother trying to communicate
with you? It's pointless, like screaming at a guy with no ears. It's like you
WANT to be confused and nobody is going to stand in the way of that mission.
It's bizarre.
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