dmb,
dmb says: > Right, the problem with religion is that it attempts to assert itself over > a higher form of quality. In fact, that seems to be John's purpose in > torturing Pirsig's ideas about the conflict between levels. He wants to > alter the MOQ's moral hierarchy in order to elevate his religion and, I > suppose, he even wants to misconstrue the MOQ itself as a form of theism. Jc: I haven't really gotten into Theism yet, Dave but I agree there is a bad problem when religion tries to usurp intellect - which in a reactionary age, it does more and more. You're wrong about my intention and motives tho. But I realize by now that my mere telling you so will not convince you. You see it as the coyote adjusting his sheepskin so he'll fit in, right? But for everybody else, I understand that there is an antagonism of some religions toward intellect ( I say "some" because I know and love some Unitarians) but to my mind, it does not follow logically that intellect should be antagonistic toward religion as a whole. dmb: > If intellectual patterns become social as soon as they're released into > society (from the subjective mind of an individual), then philosophy and > science is reduced to the same level and intellectual quality can no longer > trump social quality. See how he does that? It doesn't matter whether it > makes any sense or whether it contradicts Pirsig's explanations so long > nothing and nobody is the boss of John's religion. > > Jc: Ok, first of all, nobody will ever be the boss of MY religion because Seventh Day Zen Rastafarianism is a religion of one. But I'm glad to see that you have been paying attention to my main point. Let's try putting it another way - when intellect enters society, the EFFECTS of intellect become social. That seems plausible enough, eh? And if intellect doesn't pay attention to that fact, then society is going to pay a price down the road that will hurt intellect also. dmb: > At one point Pirsig says that the MOQ is not only non-theistic but in some > respects even anti-theistic. And the kind of thing that John is doing here > (in trying to rearrange the levels and/or deny that there is any conflict > between them) is exactly what Pirsig was talking about. That's exactly the > sense in which the MOQ is opposed to theism, when theism is > anti-intellectual. > > It's despicable. (Say that with a Daffy Duck accent, please.) > > > Jc: Well I don't talk out loud, but somehow everything you write plays out in my head with a Daffy Duck accent. Not really. I just said that because it was amusing. > John axed: > Whose reason? Whose intellect? Why those of the proper social origins of > course. > > > > > Arlo replied: > Not at all. Reason and intellect are not proprietary to a "who", they are > the products of the ongoing body of reason itself. It does not matter if a > series of studies demonstrating the impact of raising/lowering/maintaining > a speed limit are produced by Harvard or your local community college. What > matters is that adhere to the demands of intellectual quality. > > > > dmb says: > Right, Universities and colleges are public institutions and are social in > that sense but the standards for truth and evidence and intellectual > integrity are the pillars that hold up the church of reason. A good college > is moral in both ways and will fight for the intellectual standards > whenever they are threatened by social demands. > > It's called NOT selling out to the marketplace. > > Plastics! > > Plastics will always be in demand. I hear the budget for philosophers is going down in a steady drain across the land. Too many people think of philosophy as something that has no real good effect. Why? because of the kind of isolation and antagonism that is on display in your posts. When I urge you to change your attitude toward social patterns from antagonism to caring, I'm not making that point for me. I'm making it for you. John Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
