Thanks to explain,Wes,i apologise for a bad judgement on my behalf. your knowledge is as good as mine, and Anyone else. I have only a very thin laden mindset on the field of fitness, survival of the fittest, and fitness in Turing machines. I nested the term quality in the content and context of your posting ,honestly, not to attach iT to fitness,or superpose or substituate it in its meaning,.......but i believe that Pirsig was heading for another direction in his interpr of the term.Nobody needs to adopt iT of course! of you like to talk about other Things i Will engage decent postings. Adrie.
Op donderdag 7 september 2017 heeft WES STEWART <[email protected]> het volgende geschreven: > Hell Dan and All; > > I get a lot of my philosophy of quality, not from Pirsig but from William > Edwards Deming. It was back in the twenties when Walter Shewhart and Deming > were searching for ways to improve the Quality of transmission lines at > Bell Labs. They had defined Quality as a SYSTEM that is in a state of > continuous improvement. Shewhart and Deming looked at all SYSTEMs then used > their intellect or reason to search for ways to improve the SYSTEM. > > Martin Luther King also used his intellect for ways to improve the SYSTEM, > in which he paid the ultimate price that was delivered from Biologically > dominated human beings. > > > From: "Dan Glover" <[email protected] <javascript:;>> > To: "moq discuss" <[email protected] <javascript:;>> > Sent: Tuesday, September 5, 2017 5:02:03 PM > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality > ' > Wes, all, > > Quality exists in thought and deed. Sure. The future? No idea about > that. I'd say there's an even chance no matter what we project the > future to be, we'll be wrong. But even that supposition is apt to be > mistaken. This moment so fleeting, I do my best to keep close to it > and not worry too much about the past or bother with the future. I > look at both as malleable, dependent upon this moment to exist. > > I met a couple from New Mexico while watching the eclipse last month. > New agers. They had their crystals laid out on a prayer rug to soak in > the energy from the eclipse and when I went to pick one up they damned > near stroked out. Don't touch it! she hollers, like I'm about to reach > out and stroke a live rattlesnake. Apparently my negative energy'd > wreck havoc with the crystal. I'm the only person who has ever handled > it, she says, as a means of apology I think. I wanted to explain to > her that unless she dug a cave into the side of a mountain to burrow > on her belly and extract the crystal and then polished it to a high > sheen, odds were somebody else definitely touched the stone somewhere > along the way, but hey. > > I think we many times become blind to other than that which we value. > Like that woman with the crystal, we become defensive about the > choices we make. We work a job we hate on account of culture informing > us how we have to earn a living - somehow. It isn't that money is > evil. Rather, often times we tend to overlook what we have to do in > order to accrue it. The value of having a fine home and driving a > shiny car obscure the feelings of remorse in how we spend our days > earning it. Until it is too late. > > One of my favorite parts in ZMM is when the narrator and Chris are > tooling down the highway in a rainstorm and the bike is slowly > petering out 50mph 40 30 20 and as they are coasting along in a > torrential downpour some lady is staring out her car window at them in > horror and that's how I feel when I hear people hating on their jobs. > Only I'm not the lady in the car, oh no. I'm the guy on the bike doing > me some living. So there's that... > > On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 12:58 AM, WES STEWART <[email protected] > <javascript:;>> wrote: > > Hello Dan; > > > > What did Pirsig think was more of a reality, truth or quality? The > sophists and Plato insisted quality was and so did Pirsig, there is nothing > vague about it. All of his students could not define it, they could also > measure it and agree. Truth should have never usurped quality (or the good) > as the reality, for its subject object based. Pirsig swaps things around; > the present state is a horse and carriage, the future state is the > automobile. Now what is the state that you would define that is in between > them? He cannot analyze the point that is in between both, all he knows is > that it is defined as quality. Why it should exist this ratcheting we do > not know? The space in between the betterment is what was the cause of > Pirsigs first breakdown. That space is undefinable, why it even exists who > knows. > > > > I can say that quality exists in what Andrew thought, ask me as to the > space in between past employer and present employer what is it? I do not > know. > > > > > > > > From: "Dan Glover" <[email protected] <javascript:;>> > > To: "moq discuss" <[email protected] <javascript:;>> > > Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2017 9:30:04 PM > > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality > > > > Wes, all, > > > > I'm unsure what you strongly disagree with. That the MOQ states there > > is no true reality? From Lila: > > > > "Historically mystics have claimed that for a true understanding of > > reality metaphysics is too "scientific." Metaphysics is not reality. > > Metaphysics is names about reality. Metaphysics is a restaurant where > > they give you a thirty-thousand page menu and no food." > > > > "The central reality of mysticism, the reality that Phaedrus had > > called "Quality" in his first book, is not a metaphysical chess piece. > > Quality doesn't have to be defined. You understand it without > > definition, ahead of definition. Quality is a direct experience > > independent of and prior to intellectual abstractions." > > > > "Quality is indivisible, undefinable and unknowable in the sense that > > there is a knower and a known, but a metaphysics can be none of these > > things. A metaphysics must be divisible, definable, and know able, or > > there isn't any metaphysics. Since a metaphysics is essentially a kind > > of dialectical definition and since Quality is essentially outside > > definition, this means that a "Metaphysics of Quality" is essentially > > a contradiction in terms, a logical absurdity." > > > > A logical absurdity, yes. In this sense, Robert Pirsig defined static > > quality but kept Dynamic Quality concept free. So no. Pirsig did not > > define exactitude as in absolute truth. More from Lila: > > > > "There's a principle in physics that if a thing can't be distinguished > > from anything else it doesn't exist. To this the Metaphysics of > > Quality adds a second principle: if a thing has no value it isn't > > distinguished from anything else. Then, putting the two together, a > > thing that has no value does not exist. The thing has not created the > > value. The value has created the thing. When it is seen that value is > > the front edge of experience, there is no problem for empiricists > > here. It simply restates the empiricists' belief that experience is > > the starting point of all reality. The only problem is for a > > subject-object metaphysics that calls itself empiricism. > > > > " This may sound as though a purpose of the Metaphysics of Quality is > > to trash all subject-object thought but that's not true. Unlike > > subject-object metaphysics the Metaphysics of Quality does not insist > > on a single exclusive truth. If subjects and objects are held to be > > the ultimate reality then we're permitted only one construction of > > things-that which corresponds to the "objective" world-and all other > > constructions are unreal. But if Quality or excellence is seen as the > > ultimate reality then it becomes possible for more than one set of > > truths to exist. > > > > "Then one doesn't seek the absolute "Truth." > > > > "One seeks instead the highest quality intellectual explanation of > > things with the knowledge that if the past is any guide to the future > > this explanation must be taken provisionally; as useful until > > something better comes along. One can then examine intellectual > > realities the same way he examines paintings in an art gallery, not > > with an effort to find out which one is the "real" painting, but > > simply to enjoy and keep those that are of value. There are many sets > > of intellectual reality in existence and we can perceive some to have > > more quality than others, but that we do so is, in part, the result of > > our history and current patterns of values." > > > > Let's stop here for now. If you are still feeling disagreeable, please > > specify why. > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 1:28 AM, WES STEWART <[email protected] > <javascript:;>> wrote: > >> Hello Dan; > >> > >> I disagree strongly, Pirsig defines an exactitude, Andrew is there, he > is making the world a better place,he is a quality thinker. Quality is the > reality, if I can look at my twenty year old work boots or hockey skates > that is a static pattern of quality, in 2017 we have something entirely > different. > >> > >> > >> > >> From: "Dan Glover" <[email protected] <javascript:;>> > >> To: "moq discuss" <[email protected] <javascript:;>> > >> Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2017 12:08:28 AM > >> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality > >> > >> Wes, all, > >> > >> I'm pretty sure the MOQ says how there is no 'true' reality. I think > >> it was John Carl who said someone developed a mirror to show a person > >> their 'true' image. Only if you stop and consider how we view reality > >> through the lens of our own personal history, it becomes apparent what > >> is true for one person isn't for another. > >> > >> Interacting with others is not biological quality but rather social > >> quality patterns. That isn't to say social quality is composed of > >> biological beings, however. Rather it is the relationships existing > >> between people which comprise social patterns. So it behooves us all > >> to take care with who we interact no matter the circumstances. > >> > >> Biological quality has nothing to do with intellectual quality. > >> Meaning and purpose are intellectual patterns which can indeed rely on > >> comfort and money. What's the old saying? It is hard to remember how > >> you're original intention was to drain the swamp when you're up to > >> your ass in alligators. In other words, when a person is beset by > >> poverty, their primary goal in life is to feed house and clothe their > >> family. Not doing philosophy. > >> > >> > >> > >> On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 11:01 PM, WES STEWART <[email protected] > <javascript:;>> wrote: > >>> Hello Andrew and Dan, > >>> > >>> There are two realities that we feel. The intellectual reality and our > biological reality. Pursig defined the only true reality, and he was right, > you have to bring morality and classical scientific thought together. Its > not all about the physics of bowling balls and the trajectory of a missile > that are the only things we can measure. > >>> > >>> We can measure honesty, fairness, respect and kindness, its not > subjective, and is inherent and part of our reality. > >>> > >>> It is difficult to build quality into ones own biological life, > because it is highly dependent on those who surround you, the ones you > interact with. It would be very difficult for a World War ll concentration > camp prisoner to find meaning and purpose from his biological side, however > it is possible that quality was found from the higher intellectual side, > because meaning and purpose, like you have already said Andrew, does not > rely on comfort level or money. > >>> > >>> Money could have easily bought your way out of a concentration camp at > that time; according to the utmost scholar of holocaust studies Raul > Hilberg. > >>> > >> > >> http://www.danglover.com > >> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >> Archives: > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > >> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >> Archives: > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > > > > > -- > > http://www.danglover.com > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > -- > http://www.danglover.com > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > -- parser Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
