To: MARCO and Platt and the gang
From: Rog
MARCO:
Here in western Europe there's an interesting experiment: the building of a
overnational entity, the European Union, which is designed to be quite
different
(with less powers) from your federal USA. Even if there are many oppositions
to
the process toward a stronger union (especially in the UK, Denmark, Norway),
IMO
there's not the same hidden *hate* that pops out reading *between the lines*
of
American posters.
ROG:
Not hate. Love of freedom. Some are more distrustful than others. But you
have to wonder how terrible a country as powerful as the US would be if we
weren't this way. Remember, WE keep our country under control, not Italians
or Britains. Oh sure, its easy to demonize the big country, but if you want
to imagine real horror imagine a fascist US. Don't worry. America's true
strength comes from its diversity -- its intricate checks and balances at
every level.
MARCO:
And I've never listened to anyone here in Italy stating so directly and
seriously, like Platt did, that taxation is in itself a theft.
ROG:
An extreme position. 40% or so of Americans did not want the most recent tax
CUT according to polls. (Though I again repeat that over a third of
Americans don't pay taxes now. It may have been the same folks)
MARCO:
by the way, thanks Roger for remembering us that we are talking of entire
populations, where of course there are many different ideas... even in Italy
there are tons of libertarians...
ROG:
Yeah, remember David Buchanan? Flaming liberal.
MARCO:
After this long discussion, I came to few conclusions:
1. An advise to Europeans
ROG:
Well said. (americanese for "I agree"!)
MARCO:
2. An advise to Americans
On the other hand, Americans should become more watchful about the free trade
myth. It seems to me that the economic recipe of the USA can't work abroad as
it
is, and also I feel that in the USA (more than here) there are too many cases
of
a bad influence of the market logic on the intellectual/individual level.
Examples are school sponsorships; the lack of courage of media about death
penalty ("too unpopular!"); the power that private lobbies have on the
politics
( what about the intimacy between George W and oil companies?). Market, that
is
social, is blind to the individual needs: when profit is the main goal, the
risk
that the single becomes a number is huge.
ROG:
Well said again. Free enterprise can only work in free states where people
are not exploited or readily exploitable. By the way, I repeat the media is
generally liberal here and for abolishing the death penalty, schools really
are not funded by corporations (REALLY), and oil companies controling Bush
would scare me too. That is what we are fighting against, government abuse
to support someone against someone else. (For full disclosure you should know
I was a registered corporate lobbyist in Texas for much of the 90's). You
are also correct that profit is insufficient as a goal. I think few
americans would argue. We are not so far apart.
MARCO:
IMHO the intellectual level is, in the end, the
supremacy of the individuals over the giants, both political and economical
giants. My personal interpretation of the MOQ sees the political-economic
system as the *environment* of the social level.
ROG:
Again I agree. We tend to see freedom and individualism as very related. I
can't stress this enough. For intellectual freedom, the American's feel
biological and social freedom are required. AS LONG AS OTHERS ARE NOT HURT.
MARCO:
3. Free trade
This supposed free trade is not free at all in the third world, where
capitalist
firms (not only American, of course) still persevere to act immorally toward
the
local populations and environments. It's cynical to say that it's fault of the
Nigerian government, so to say, if the oil companies are *legally* destroying
the environment. We all know that the oil firms can make the laws there.
ROG:
I have argued this entire time against exploitation by anyone. The problem
is power imbalance. Corporations, warlords, fascists, commies, unions,
attorneys, environmentalists. The problem isn't that one of these is evil,
it is that any of these can be evil if not controlled.
MARCO:
And
probably all the blind supporters of this system (that is NOT the ideal free
trade the MOQ talks about) too easily forget that the western richness has
been
built also thanks to the exploitation of the third world.
ROG:
Not here. It was formed on the exploitation of an indiginous people that we
basically drove to near extinction with the help of another race that we
enslaved. This wasn't a capitalism thing. It was a fucked up exploitation
thing.
MARCO:
A good intellectual
project should be to build a fair world, even helping those people to create a
*really free* market and a *really representative* democracy.
ROG:
YES!
MARCO:
4. Libertarianism is a dangerous illusion.
Maybe I'm stating obvious things, but it's good
to remember that our freedom begins in the point where the other's freedom
ends.
ROG:
Golden words. Beautifully written!
MARCO:
And this is the limit of libertarianism. When Clarke declares proudly that he
reaches the peace of mind thanks to his .22 caliber, the first thing I can
think
is that I COULD NOT LIVE IN SUCH A STUPID NATION. Clarke, I'm not meaning that
YOU are stupid! I'm just saying that if it is necessary to own a GUN to be
PEACEful, (as the town is full of freely armed people) well, there's something
wrong in that nation.
ROG:
Again I concur. I stated up front that our love of liberty was imo WARPED
into an IRRATIONAL belief in the right to own guns.
MARCO:
Fortunately, Roger will assure me that tons of Americans don't bear arms, and
that all these news about the passion for arms are intentionally provided by
those leftists of Hollywood.
ROG:
You give better arguments than me. Actually, some Americans really are
extremists -- luckily both ways!
MARCO:
A nation where it is normal for Brian Taylor to write:
> for some reason we are very paranoid about
> everything really. nobody trusts any body.
is probably the paradise of Rights and the tomb of Duties.
ROG:
I think only a paranoid would write something like this. I have lived in
over half of the top ten cities (in size) in America and in the San Fransisco
Bay area over the past 20 years, and have felt safe *almost* everywhere in
all of them (San Diego, Phoenix, Dallas, Houston, Chicago , Denver and SF,
and I frequently travel through the upper East coast areas). Crime has
dropped steadily for 15 years or so, and is I believe at its lowest level
since 1973. I believe that you should trust people and treat them with
respect, and find that I get the same in return from almost everybody.
MARCO:
It's on the economic dimension that the duty thing is not clear at all. Maybe
Americans are more libertarians only 'cause they don't need an explicit
mention
to duties even on this dimension; they well know, for example, that the
freedom
of the market is controlled by antitrust laws; on the other hand, Europeans
moqers hardly arrive to 50 points, probably 'cause we have a scarce confidence
in the respect of the duties by private firms. More likely, simply Americans
have less care about duties.
ROG:
I wrote a few weeks ago on this issue, but got no commentary. I think
America IS less about duty, obligation and honor and more about individual
and universal rights. The down side of individualism is indeed *selfishness*
and the downside of duty is indeed "Tribalism*. Both approaches work fine
and both lead to abuse. OK? I also said that free enterprise may not quite
work right in a tribalistic/collectivistic ethos. (Japan is a case in point)
MARCO:
5. Private or Public?
It was the initial question, and my last answer. Well, let me say that the
main
thing is democracy. Who decides what has to be public, and what has to be
private? In a democratic context, the population, through their representants
freely elected, decides what's to be private. So it is good *if they really
want
that* for Americans that the health system is private. It is good as well for
British, *if they really want that*, to support their NHS. .... In this
sense, Roger's position about the
legitimacy of what he calls *experiments* (but I'd say from my view point
that a
private health system is an experiment!) is at least open minded.
ROG:
You have been stressing the need for competing systems for a half year now.
You taught me well my brother!
So, do we have any outstanding issues?
Roger
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