[Micah has asked] When did they hold the vote on whether people needed to be ruled?
[Arlo had answered] What a great question! Of course, Marx believed that the overthrow of the bourgeoisie would begin atemporary time of transitional rule by a Party speaking for the workers (thecommunist party), but that this would eventually disappear as communities wouldorganize into self-governing "communes" (to simplify a bit) with little to no"authoritative" government. In other words, people who "vote" that they "didnot need to be ruled". "The "first phase" [of the communist revolution] would eventually give way to a"higher phase" in which class differences were eliminated, and a state was nolonger needed." (Wikipedia on Communism) Many consider this a pipe-dream, given the seemingly insurmountable obstacle ofhuman greed, ambition and desire for power (and they may be right). But takesolace knowing that Marx, like you, decried the final need for a "state" aswell. [SA] An individualist program sounds like 'My way or the highway'. ... When we have all these 'My Way or the Highway' individuals walking around, is that the stereotypical 'Wild, Wild, West'? [Ron] I thought too if individualism was pushed to extreme the "anarchist" label could be dusted off and thrown around. [Arlo] Anyone who cites the Sex Pistols should have a beer bought for them. First one is on me, Ron. "Anarchists are those who advocate the absence of the state, arguing that common sense would allow for people to come together in agreement to form a functional society allowing for the participants to freely develop their own sense of morality, ethics or principled behaviour." (Wikipedia) This certainly sounds like something both Micah and Marx would endorse. And quite frankly it sounds here surprisingly MOQish, doesn't it? I mean, the "state" is not the "social level", under Anarchism people still engage socially. Its not a "every man on his own deserted island" idea. One question jumps out, and that is how reasonable is this "utopia"? If man's basic nature is towards greed and power, and Pirsig is right that the social level is (in part) a way to excise authority in forcing man to behave "civilly", wouldn't Anarchism quickly devolve into the "Wild, Wild West" as SA mentions? Wouldn't "might makes right" become the norm? Isn't that why we created a socialized police force and a socialized judiciary system in the first place? (And why people like Platt aren't Anarchists, they only play one on TV.) And then there are the sub-anarchies, anarcho-communism and anarcho-capitalism. Here Marx and Micah would likely split ways, as anarcho-communism "advocates the abolition of the State and capitalism in favor of a horizontal network of voluntary associations, workers' councils and/or commons through which everyone will be free to satisfy their needs", while anarcho-capitalism "advocates the elimination of the state; the provision of law enforcement, courts, national defense, and all other security services by voluntarily-funded competitors in a free market rather than by taxation; the complete deregulation of nonintrusive personal and economic activities; and a self-regulated market." (Wikipedia) Aside from the "property" issue, do not both of these presume more about human nature than appears evident today? Who would protect the anarcho-whatever nation from the hordes of immigrants or terroristic destruction? With no police or judiciary, would we hunt down killers with angry mobs a ala Wild, Wild West? (Which might be fun, I've always wanted to be in a posse.) If you read the entry on anarcho-capitalism, however, it contains a key difference from modern capitalism, not simply the abolition of taxation. With the abolition of all government, including a treasury, human enterprise takes on a more "guild" system of production. Without "money" to mediate labor and reward, there is no factory lines, no mass production, just butchers, bakers and candlestick makers, with each trading his/her "goods" for other "goods", a al a barter economy. Just some thoughts, as I crank up my Never Mind the Bollocks CD. moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
