Hi Arlo, In the wild-west, people elected mayors, sheriffs and appointed deputies from amongst their peers ... . "OK, let's get organised, let's run the freeloaders out of town, let's get this town on the map." ... natural progression.
The contradictions in Platt are not in fact a digression - they are the problem "of our time". Somehow a belief in "freedom" must be seen as a denunciation of government, or vice versa. People who can only see the extreme ends of dichotomies are doomed to contradiction. You can have too much of a "good" thing, just as you can a "bad" thing. But the goodness and badness are contextual and relative (in a strict, non-arbitrary, sense). Freedoms have some limits in some contexts. When Micah questions "rule" and "slavery" he is using pejorative terms for pretty extreme ends of the governance spectrum - the oppressive end. If we "killed" the monarchy, we'd a have to invent a presidency. What's the difference - we still need rules of succession / tenure / authority. etc. Bush is surely more of an absolute Monarch that the Windsors, or in fact any ruling house in Britain for 2 or 3 cnetiries for that matter - he just doesn't happen to be called the "king" of America. Most Brits think of President Windsor as the "Head of State" rather than a ruling monarch - rule ? That word went down with the Ark surely, except in metaphorical terms ? (Thai's by the way, have immense respect for their Monarch - but the respect is mutual, earned and evolved.) Ian On 5/16/07, ARLO J BENSINGER JR <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > [Ian] > Talking bollocks and rulers at the same time, The queen ain't no human bein' - > don'tcha know ? > > [Arlo] > "God Save the Queen" is a scathing commentary on tiered valuation of human > life > (in this sense aristocratic). Rock, when it has been most important and not > simply narcisstic self-deification, is indeed a very artistic and very > relevant > commentary on social issues. > > [Ian] > Whatever the history of oppressive forms or rule and various popular or > anarchistic revolutions against those - surely most governance arises by > pragmatic choice in "the free world". > > [Arlo] > Yes, I agree. I am no Anarchist (although I play one in my dreams). I don't > run > from the idea of social governance, and side with the Contributor Formerly > Known as Case that one of the biggest dupes pulled on the American people is > the Raygun Era "government is the problem". > > I support social-collectivist programs such as a socialized police force, a > socialized military, a socialized judiciary, and a socialized treasury. I > support "force at the point of a gun" to prevent people from murder and rape. > I > support using the forceful hand of government to maintain a federal reserve, > and forcing people at the point of a gun to support it. I don't pretend to be > a > "individualist" as Platt does while supporting such encompassing socialist > programs. I see these socialist programs as beneficial for the reasons I > earlier articulated to Micah (likely the only true "individualist" among us, I > am waiting to hear his comments on anarcho-capitalism), namely that > restricting > one freedom (the freedom to rape) increases the overall freedoms for everyone. > Sure, in Arlo's Socialist Utopia you would not have the freedom to rape, but > don't you think you'd be freer for it? > > Platt wants to pretend he's an "individualist", and use the word > "collectivist" > as a term of derision for others, but it is clear he supports some of the most > far reaching and forceful social programs we have (the US Treasury tops the > bill, in my book, but the police and military are not far behind). He condemns > using "force", and yet wants me locked up for not muffling my motorcycle, or > others locked up for choosing to wear hajibs. But I digress... > > Back to Anarchism. I have a hard time envisioning this without picturing the > Wild West, as SA commented. And I'd be surprised to see many self-professed > "individualists" support abolishing a socialized treasury. What's funny is > that > most Marxists I have read would likely have little problem with > anarcho-capitalism, as it places the rewards of one's labor into the laborer's > hands, rather than a (as Marx might say) a bottom-feeding bourgeoisie. While > anarcho-communism may be slightly more utopic than anarcho-capitalism, both > rely on a human nature that is rarely evident in the real world. Greed, the > lust for power, is so prevalent that its hard to NOT see it is inherent human > nature. But then I picture Tibetan communities and am reminded that perhaps > these utopias are possible. > > [Ian] > It's simply a natural evolution of humans as intelligent social animals to > understand that governance is more valuable than none. > > [Arlo] > And I'd say that this is the MOQ position, yes. > > [Ian] > Of course, the government we get we deserve - won't get fooled again, here > comes the new boss, same as the old boss, etc. ... unless we "participate" > (with our brains). > > [Arlo] > With so much propaganda and distortion emanating out of our dichotomous > political system, I think that real change must be preceded by drastic (dare I > say "revolutionary") changes to the system. > > Political stances aside, I find it quite scary that we could get another > "Clinton" as President, and that supposing this "Clinton" holds the office for > two terms, we will likely then get another "Bush" (Jeb) next. Which would mean > that from 1992-? we would have either a "Bush" or a "Clinton" as president. A > stretch of possible 32 years (Clinton, Clinton, Bush, Bush, Clinton, Clinton, > Bush, Bush). > > "God Save the Monarchy", anyone? > > > moq_discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
