[Ian] Talking bollocks and rulers at the same time, The queen ain't no human bein' - don'tcha know ?
[Arlo] "God Save the Queen" is a scathing commentary on tiered valuation of human life (in this sense aristocratic). Rock, when it has been most important and not simply narcisstic self-deification, is indeed a very artistic and very relevant commentary on social issues. [Ian] Whatever the history of oppressive forms or rule and various popular or anarchistic revolutions against those - surely most governance arises by pragmatic choice in "the free world". [Arlo] Yes, I agree. I am no Anarchist (although I play one in my dreams). I don't run from the idea of social governance, and side with the Contributor Formerly Known as Case that one of the biggest dupes pulled on the American people is the Raygun Era "government is the problem". I support social-collectivist programs such as a socialized police force, a socialized military, a socialized judiciary, and a socialized treasury. I support "force at the point of a gun" to prevent people from murder and rape. I support using the forceful hand of government to maintain a federal reserve, and forcing people at the point of a gun to support it. I don't pretend to be a "individualist" as Platt does while supporting such encompassing socialist programs. I see these socialist programs as beneficial for the reasons I earlier articulated to Micah (likely the only true "individualist" among us, I am waiting to hear his comments on anarcho-capitalism), namely that restricting one freedom (the freedom to rape) increases the overall freedoms for everyone. Sure, in Arlo's Socialist Utopia you would not have the freedom to rape, but don't you think you'd be freer for it? Platt wants to pretend he's an "individualist", and use the word "collectivist" as a term of derision for others, but it is clear he supports some of the most far reaching and forceful social programs we have (the US Treasury tops the bill, in my book, but the police and military are not far behind). He condemns using "force", and yet wants me locked up for not muffling my motorcycle, or others locked up for choosing to wear hajibs. But I digress... Back to Anarchism. I have a hard time envisioning this without picturing the Wild West, as SA commented. And I'd be surprised to see many self-professed "individualists" support abolishing a socialized treasury. What's funny is that most Marxists I have read would likely have little problem with anarcho-capitalism, as it places the rewards of one's labor into the laborer's hands, rather than a (as Marx might say) a bottom-feeding bourgeoisie. While anarcho-communism may be slightly more utopic than anarcho-capitalism, both rely on a human nature that is rarely evident in the real world. Greed, the lust for power, is so prevalent that its hard to NOT see it is inherent human nature. But then I picture Tibetan communities and am reminded that perhaps these utopias are possible. [Ian] It's simply a natural evolution of humans as intelligent social animals to understand that governance is more valuable than none. [Arlo] And I'd say that this is the MOQ position, yes. [Ian] Of course, the government we get we deserve - won't get fooled again, here comes the new boss, same as the old boss, etc. ... unless we "participate" (with our brains). [Arlo] With so much propaganda and distortion emanating out of our dichotomous political system, I think that real change must be preceded by drastic (dare I say "revolutionary") changes to the system. Political stances aside, I find it quite scary that we could get another "Clinton" as President, and that supposing this "Clinton" holds the office for two terms, we will likely then get another "Bush" (Jeb) next. Which would mean that from 1992-? we would have either a "Bush" or a "Clinton" as president. A stretch of possible 32 years (Clinton, Clinton, Bush, Bush, Clinton, Clinton, Bush, Bush). "God Save the Monarchy", anyone? moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
