Hey SA Its not exactly what I'm saying, but what it disagrees with, agrees with what I disagree with, if that makes sense.
For me the levels are arbitrary and imprecise in their allocation, I agree with the heirarchy but might draw the lines in different ways (or do away with them altogether). Mine is a differentiated monism that I think is similar to Ham's essentialism model except that we agree on exhaustively none of the specific or general points. ;.) I think that I think the following: Dynamic value, evaluates things, that's what it does, and as it continuously does so there can be standing waves in its flow, these are simple patterns that are a differentiation of that source, and they become real in that differentiation, emerging from transient possible value into actual static value. Join the dots of the crests of those waves and you have a set of second order derivatives, that are fundamentally different from the simple wave forms but still of the same stuff as the dynamic value itself. Keep building from there and you get a succession of levels, arranged in complex patterns where all those patterns have relationships both to each other and with the source. Mapping this onto a Pirsigian type heirarchy: Perhaps envisioning the wave crest as the static pattern we interpret as the simplest particle, then the 1st order derivative pattern being analogous to an inorganic compound etc etc. The static patterns are not "real" as they are not matter but static waves in dynamic evaluation, one static pattern evaluates another and in the context of that evaluation both become parts of one larger pattern. Thus to one another they are real but their nature is unchanged with respect to an (impossible) outsider. A human viewing something takes it into a new broader pattern making it "real" to her. There is a class of pattern that is the rules governing ordered manipulation of thoughts, which is distinct from, but is a derivative of, the pattern that is a particular thought or memory. In the same way that there is a pattern that is the shape of a flock of geese, which is distinct from, but a derivative of the pattern that is a goose. Intellectual level (of static patterns) doesn't exist without a static intellectual pattern - this is a tautology. What you define as being an intellectal pattern is where the debate can be. Intellect as a static level has no more to do with dynamic values than does a lump of coal, if anything its farther removed. Like an old zen monk might say the more you think the less you know. That said, the capacity to actualise a static pattern describing the nature of being, is a comodity of a particular set of rules governing the manipulation of thoughts. SA - for all your rambling intractable musings you are an inspiration! > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Heather Perella > Sent: 23 May 2007 16:01 > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [MD] Animals and Dynamic Quality > > > [Jos] > > Lila - It sets cultural and intellectual patterns > > above biological ones, then quite separately it > > assigns humans to the first category and other > > animals to the second. Its the second bit that I'm > > saying is wrong, the structure and relative > > moralities are the fundamental bit and can be > > preserved wherever it is that you decice a > > particular entity resides. > > > Jos, are you saying the following: > For sake of not getting hung-up on whether or not > a moose is intellectual, I'm saying this to reflect my > interpretation of intellectual level. So for > instance, let's say a moose (or an alien creature) is > found to be intellectual wouldn't this mean that the > intellectual level is not the human level? I mean > isn't this why its' called the intellectual level. > Thus, we know the intellectual level exists because we > experience this level. I know that statement jumps > out at Ham, but where does this intellectual level > exist if human beings are not here, or let's say no > other creature experiences the intellectual level? > Does the intellectual level still exist? I know Ham > will say NO, the intellect does not exist 'out-there' > to be had, to be achieved, or experience, floating > around in the universe. I agree Ham. I'm saying the > intellectual level does NOT exist until, using > Pirsig's model, a social level is organized or static > enough, to dynamicly experience intellect. Thus, > intellect appears to come 'out of nowhere'. Was > intellect always in this primary reality called > dynamic quality? I say NO. Not until a social level > was capable of creating this intellectual level. Just > as biological level created a social level dynamicly. > So, an alien creature could also experience the > intellectual level. Also, a moose could socialize > enough and dynamicly experience intellect, too. I do > know anthropologist focus upon complex societies, such > as chimpanzees, due to their showings of culture, > which some say points to intellect, thus, the > intellectual level might dynamically be experienced. > I don't know if chimpanzees have static latched upon > the intellectual level to remain upon this level. > > Is this what your saying Jos? > > blue sky, nothin' but blue sky, > SA > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > ______________________ > Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, > your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! 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