[Keith] I agree with your pragmatic point that arguing about the groundstuff of reality doesn't advance the cause of developing a model of reality that helps us predict and control. I also subscribe to Wittgenstein's injunction, "whereof one cannot speak, one must remain silent." Metaphysical speculation without some grounding is worse than useless. You're also right that we'll never have a definitive intellectual understanding of ultimate reality. However, I don't agree that all talk about the nature of ultimate reality is useless
However, I think that it does matter what the fundamental groundstuff of the universe is. In an attempt save morality from subjectivism, emotivism, and deism, Pirsig spends a great deal of time arguing that this fundamental essence is *not* amoral matter, but instead, Quality. I think that Wilber & others' identification of the ground of being as Spirit achieves a similar transvaluation. Which conception, if either, is superior, I'm not sure, but I think it's worth exploring for the same reasons that led Pirsig to question "substance" and "matter" as the fundamental building blocks of reality. [Ron] Hello Keith, I agree, speculation is not useless. Although It does help to be reminded that this is what is happening. After reading some of Wilburs work and Topos theory, I began to read Lila again and was immediately hit by Pirsigs method of organizing his tray of slips for his book. I think that passage summed up his ideas about value pretty well. Speculation about the building blocks of reality always seems to boil down to the interplay of forms of energy, speculation gets dicey after that. I feel Pirsig terms moral as he terms Quality, not necessarily what is good, but what is observed to work. I believe the endless random colliding, bumping and grinding of molecules do not bond because of betterness but they bond because they just do. Something about the combo or the formation just sticks. After that is the perception of what works to be termed good or moral. I like Pirsigs term "value" personally, I feel it captures the process more accurately. But that's me. Thanks Keith, It is allways an honor to converse with an original member. -Ron -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ron Kulp Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 11:10 To: [email protected] Subject: [MD] Perception,evolution and the spirit Hello, Hope eveyone had an enjoyable and safe holiday. The threads I've read through the weekend have lead me to comment and query fundemental aspects of our philosophies. My thoughts: Pirsigs value, Wilburs Holons, Topos (set) theory all share the same concept and are described simularly. That all reality is composed of interrelated forms of energy. The perception of this concept manifests as subject object metaphysics. The use of this concept is to form an accurate model in which to observe and predict possibility and probability. To use this concept to further any other concept other than an accurate model for observation is to follow perception not increase accurate observation. In my opinion to quarrel about god,essence,spirit, life force,quality, or betterness, to speculate that it is driven,pulled,evolves or drawn to a conclusion or goal is using that model to further a perception of a subject/object universe. Subject/object perception can not be "dropped" like a unstylish hand bag. Anyone who thinks they do not percieve in terms of subjects and objects is fooling themselves. To increase the accuracy of observation is to increase the accuracy of value Perception. Because we percieve in terms of subjects and objects, I speculate that definitive understanding of ultimate reality is unachieveable and will Be forever lost in subjective perception. This is the pitfall . Quality is perception, to give this name any meaning beyond this or to speak of anything before perception is an exercise in unknowable speculation. moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
