[Krimel]
I'm not necessarily saying that Quality=Spirit, I'm just saying that they
play similar roles in Pirsig's and Wilber's respective philosophies. You
claimed that Spirit was not especially relevant to Wilber's system and then
criticized him for working out a "system that reveals Spirit" when he's
already postulated it as the ground of being.
[Krimel]
No no no. I said according to Wilber's tenets of holons the lower a holon is
the more fundamental it is but the less relevant. So if Spirit is the most
fundamental thing it is the least relevant. I doubt that Wilber would agree
with this.
[Keith]
I responded that Quality plays
the same role in the MOQ. Pirsig postulates it as reality itself (forget the
word "primordial" if you don't like it, but Pirsig uses it in Chapter 30 of
*Lila*: "...if Quality were the primordial source of all our understanding
..."), and then proceeds to reason about quality, value, the Good,
betterness. If that's on OK metaphysical chess move for Pirsig, then I don't
see how Wilber should be criticized for substituting "Spirit" in the same
spot.
[Krimel]
I do not think that is a good move on Pirsig's part either.
[Keith]
>From your previous posts, it seemed like you were consistently confusing the
two, since you keep insisting that Wilber thinks that conscious states of
dreaming are somehow higher than waking, which I believe to be a wholly
inaccurate characterization.
With respect to your question on higher levels of spirituality: mu.
[Krimel]
Well there is this from the lengthy footnote in SES
". The five skandhas are generally listed as (1) physical form, (2)
sensation, (3) perception/impulse, (4) emotion/image ("dispositions"), and
(5) symbolic/conceptual consciousness. (Note that these are also exactly the
first five basic structures of consciousness in the Upper-Left quadrant as I
presented them in the text; see, for example, figs. 4-1, 5-1, and 9-1.)For
the higher Tantras, the last skandha-or mental consciousness in general-is
then further divided into three general domains: the gross, the subtle, and
the very subtle. The gross realm is the sensorimotor realm, and the gross
mind is the mind tied to, or reflective of, the sensorimotor world (and
supported by the gross or vital wind). The subtle domain is the mind freed
from all gross-conceptions (as revealed in higher meditative states, certain
dream states, and so on), supported by the subtle wind (and channels and
drops-all part of the "subtle anatomy" of consciousness). The very subtle
domain is the mind of Clear Light Emptiness, supported by the "eternal
indestructible drop" and very subtle wind in the center of the Heart.These
three domains (gross, subtle, and very subtle or causal) are also said to
correspond to the Nirmanakaya, the Sambhogakaya, and the Dharmakaya; and to
waking, dream, and deep sleep states (at which point the similarities with
the Vedanta become quite striking;
[Keith]
Wilber does invoke an ordering of developmental stages, but those have to do
with various human faculties, not strictly with "spirituality". For those
correlated developmental phases Wilber invokes, he would point to the
specific criteria that the theorists he builds his work on use to identify
their respective stages of human development. For cognitive development,
that would primarily be Piaget, for worldview/values, Beck, etc.
[Krimel]
But this is the point I have been attempting to make. Piaget's work does not
support what Wilber is saying. Wilber brings Piaget in through the backdoor
then props him up in the front room. This is little more than name dropping.
Anyway I gotta quit for now. Holy mackerel these have gotten long... We need
to find a way to chop this up a bit. What would you guys say is the central
issue here.
Keith?
Dave?
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