Krimel said to dmb: ...Wilber's concept of flatland is nothing more than new age gibberish. I have pointed out that nothing in science suggests the need or desire to reduce anything in the way Wilber claims. Biology does not try to explain itself in terms of quarks and leptons anymore that history and psychology seek explanations from genetics.
dmb says: Of course biologists don't reduce things to quarks and nobody said they did. We're talking about flatland, not tiny town. Think of Pirsig's discussions about objectivity in anthropology or the way behaviorism is considered scientific while psychoanalysis is merely an art. That is flatland reductionism. I've never heard of anybody wanting to break biology down into quarks or anything like that. I really can't imagine where you got this impression. Krimel: I have pointed out many times that Wilber's talk of expanded consciousness is nothing more than pandering to empty headed rich new agers. dmb says: You've dished up a lot of empty insults like this one. You say he panders to empty headed new agers but his work is fairly well established in the academic world. I'm not denying that there might be an empty headed new ager who read and enjoyed one of his books, but the idea that his ideas have no credibility among serioius people is factually incorrect. Its just plain wrong. By the way, I have no money. Krimel said: All this while virtually ignoring the emergence of real expanded awareness and consciousness that is booming around us in the form of cell phones, instant messaging, e-mail, Google Earth, GPS, webcams, Alternative Intelligences, the expansion of identical shared memory in the form of film and voice recording and the sum total of human knowledge instantly available at the touch of a button. All of this higher level consciousness emerges specifically from the direction of rational thinking suggested by Piaget whom Wilber butchers while you applaud. dmb says: These forms of technology reflect a higher form of consciousness and their use might very well lead to even higher forms in turn, but technology itself is not conscious. At least, not cell phones. Not yet. You're not really saying anything that hair-brained. The post-Piagetian structures added by Wilber are also based on "the emergence of real expanded awareness and consciousness" too, but its not the sort that is "booming all around us" for the simple reason that it is not that common. Unlike the early stages, which are more or less universal, these higher structures are not something you can find in just anybody but they can be detected in the same way. Like I said, I don't think this is butchery. Its only addition and in the world of idea is it perfectly normal practice. In fact, I think your objections to this are quite meaningless. Krimel said: And then there is William James. I have shown on each and every occasion that you have dropped his name, specifically why you haven't a clue what he is talking about. I have presented quote after quote from young James, old James, Billy the Kid James disputing your shallow reading. At one point you had young and old James arguing with himself in the same paragraph. dmb says: If memory serves, here you are refering to the James quote used by Hoftstadter to open the final chapter of his book on Social Darwinism. It was your claim that James was not talking about darwinism in that quote. The quote all by itself is enought to contradict the claim. Considering the context, your claim was not even plausible. It would have to mean that Hofstadter, his thesis advisor and his publisher were all a bunch of idiots. So you'll forgive me if I don't take you seriously on this point either. _________________________________________________________________ Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps. http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?ss=Restaurants~Hotels~Amusement%20Park&cp=33.832922~-117.915659&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=1118863&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01 moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
