> Those quotes are correct. I think the more recent research, though, is > moving us forward. We have found correlations between .50 - .60 > between > fluency and comprehension for older students. Not huge, but not > insignificant either
Tim. I'd love to see the studies you refer to. And again, as you've pointed out, correlation is not causation and therefore, it is entirely possible and maybe even likely, that comprehension is influencing fluency-- or at the very least, the relationship is reciprocal rather than it's fluency that's influencing comprehension, right? It's hard for me to comment since I haven't seen the studies you refer to. Can you post or send them? Thanks/ This is a fascinating discussion. Oh and I would add, that the big (newer) federal research study on ELL's also states that a big part of the problem with reading instruction for ELL's is the focus (I almost wrote "phocus" accidentally) on surface skills so ELL's sound really good and appear to be about equal with their English first peers until around third grade when the curriculum shifts the focus to comprehension. Chall found this also and thus we began to the now notorious "fourth grade slump." Then the kids (in the federal study on Minority Children and Youth) fail miserably because their reading instruction has focused almost entirely on phonics and other surface skills without the deeper level thinking and text interaction that so many here on MOT advocate for. There are many vital quotes from this study (in my book and you can also get them online)--Diane August has done a lot to promote the findings from this federal study. Those findings I believe are very important to the focus of MOT and what so many of you advocate about comprehension. Ok, I'm going to quit clogging up people's emails now and get back to the articles I'm writing and have been procrastinating on writing. Thanks for a really, really good discussion and to all of you for sharing your experiences and thoughts. Elaine On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 07:26 AM, RASINSKI, TIMOTHY wrote: > Those quotes are correct. I think the more recent research, though, is > moving us forward. We have found correlations between .50 - .60 > between > fluency and comprehension for older students. Not huge, but not > insignificant either. > > Fluency instruction should not be aimed to get kids thinking about > fluency (although unfortunately that happens to be the case in many > instances) -- rather I think fluency instruction should be aimed at > getting students so fluent that all they have to think about it > meaning. > > > > Timothy Rasinski, Ph.D. > Reading and Writing Center > 404 White Hall > Kent State University > Kent, OH 44242 > > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Phone: 330-672-0649 > Cell: 330-962-6251 > Fax: 330-672-2025 > Informational website: www.timrasinski.com > Professional Development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of elaine garan > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 11:22 AM > To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group > Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim > >> >> I am going to have to respectfully disagree with the comment that > there >> is a zero correlation between fluency and comprehension beyond first >> grade. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that fluency is a huge >> concern with our struggling readers through high school. luency > > Ok, here are the quotes from Steven Stahl, from the Voice of Evidence. > That book was, as you know, written by members and contributors of the > NRP to help teachers put the findings into practice. It was dedicated > to Reid Lyon. It was supported with funding from the National Institute > > of Child Health and Human Development. Stahl, confirms and I believe, > cites the findings from Kuhn's study. So, here respectfully, are part > of Stahl's summary of the research on the relationship between fluency > and comprehension. I think this is important especially when we put it > in the perspective of Kuhn's studies and all the research that > converges with her findings. There's more-- Jay Samuels (chair of the > NRP Fluency section) agrees but a lot of what he's done is in > opposition to DIBELS and I don't want to open that can of worms again! > > The following quotes are from National Reading Panel contributor Steven > > Stahl's > chapter on fluency in the federally approved book The Voice of Evidence > > in Reading > Research: > > "Oral reading accuracy is related to comprehension only in first and > second grades with the > correlations in third grade and beyond falling to near zero" (p. 190). > > "Sometimes children can read accurately but do not understand what they > > read" (p. 188). > > "Teaching children simply to say isolated words faster does not seem to > > improve reading > comprehension. A number of studies have examined teaching children to > say words . . . . > faster. Although all found that children's passage reading fluency > improved, NONE found > differences in comprehension between the study group and the control > group" (p. 189). > > Again, I am not arguing that laborious reading hinders kids' > comprehension especially if we're forcing them to read aloud. But I am > saying, respectfully and the research confirms that as soon as we train > > kids to think about fluency, they do what we are telling them is > important and they lose the focus on comprehension. However, if we > focus on comprehension, fluency will come and kids will be as fluent as > > they need to be. > > As you noted, correlation is not causation. > > On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 06:27 AM, RASINSKI, TIMOTHY wrote: > >> I am going to jump in and share my own thoughts. I agree that >> fluency >> may be a craze, and may be passing phase, especially if it is nothing >> more than teaching kids to read fast and faster. >> >> However, reading fluency and comprehension are strongly connected. >> When >> children read words automatically or effortlessly they can use their >> good brain to make sense of what they read -- not struggle to read the >> words. Try reading a poem from Shel Silverstein's Runny Babbit and > you >> will probably find yourself spending more effort figuring out the > words >> and less attention is place on making meaning. This is what I think > so >> many of our children go through. They can read the words, but so >> haltingly that they are unable to pay much attention to meaning. >> >> And, when students read text with appropriate expression, phrasing, >> emphasis, pausing and all the other prosodic cues that linguists talk >> about they are giving evidence that the are making meaning with their >> voice. >> >> I am going to have to respectfully disagree with the comment that > there >> is a zero correlation between fluency and comprehension beyond first >> grade. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that fluency is a huge >> concern with our struggling readers through high school. I have a >> study in the Journal of Adolescent and Adult Literacy where we showed > a >> significant and substantial correlation between fluency and 9th >> graders' >> (from an urban school district) performance on Ohio's High School >> Graduation Test. I now have study that I sent for review where we >> found >> a strong correlation between fluency and comprehension for 3rd, 5th, >> and >> 7th graders in Omaha. Moreover, the magnitude of the correlation did >> not decrease as the students got older -- it remained remarkably high >> through the grades. >> >> Correlation is not causation. But we are now coming out with work > that >> shows that appropriate instruction in fluency can lead to improvements >> (sometime breathtaking) in comprehension and overall reading >> achievement >> for students in 4th grade through high school (check out The Reading >> Teacher, Oct 2004; Reading Psychology, fall 2007 for two studies that >> have demonstrated these gains). >> >> David Liben in Vermont has been doing some excellent work that has >> shown >> similar effects among older high school students. >> >> I guess I've said enough for now. Fluency can be a troubling concept >> -- I agree; but please don't decide that it is worthless because of > the >> way some experts recommend it be taught. If done appropriately, I >> think (I know from my own clinical and classroom work) that it can be >> life saver for many students. >> >> >> Timothy Rasinski, Ph.D. >> Reading and Writing Center >> 404 White Hall >> Kent State University >> Kent, OH 44242 >> >> email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Phone: 330-672-0649 >> Cell: 330-962-6251 >> Fax: 330-672-2025 >> Informational website: www.timrasinski.com >> Professional Development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Zoe Jackson >> Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 8:35 PM >> To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group >> Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim >> >> Your third paragraph sounds so sensible to me. I've had a gut feeling >> recently that fluency is the present education craze, but a passing >> phase. It is an easy improvement to be able to measure, but does it >> actually develop comprehension skills. Thanks for your knowledgeable >> input. >> Zoe >> On Saturday, July 7, 2007, at 09:10 PM, elaine garan wrote: >> >>> I'm not Tim, but I'll jump in here with a thought that might put your >>> experience in a different perspective. >>> >>> Do you think it's possible that when he's reading aloud, he's so >>> focused on how he sounds that he isn't thinking about what he's >>> reading? This happens to me. When I'm reading in front of an > audience, >>> very often, I have no idea of what I've read. Maybe this is a sign >> that >>> he's a mature reader. How often do any of us read aloud? How often do >>> we worry about how fluently we read or how we sound? And when we do >>> worry about that, what happens to our comprehension? Most of us do >> most >>> of our reading silently. >>> >>> Beyond beginning reading, beyond first grade, there is a zero >>> correlation between fluency and comprehension. In fact, fluency (in >>> terms of a focus on wpm and even prosody) can actually interfere with >>> comprehension because the reader is thinking about that performance >>> aspect instead of meaning, especially if he or she is being timed. . >>> The research supports that. So maybe this boy is a fluent as he needs >>> to be. And if he's reading silently with comprehension, then why > worry >>> about how he sounds when he reads aloud since most of mature reading >>> and even reading for tests is silent anyway? >>> >>> >>> On Saturday, July 7, 2007, at 05:53 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >>> >>>> Yes he can. When he reads aloud he rereads constantly and has hardly >>>> any >>>> comprehension. If I ask him to read a page silently and tell me what >>>> it's about >>>> he can. He's a mystery. >>>> >>>> Sue >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ************************************** See what's free at >>>> http://www.aol.com. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Mosaic mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to >>>> http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/ >>>> mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. >>>> >>>> Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Mosaic mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to >>> http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/ >>> mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. >>> >>> Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Mosaic mailing list >> [email protected] >> To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to >> http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/ >> mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. >> >> Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Mosaic mailing list >> [email protected] >> To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to >> http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/ >> mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. >> >> Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. >> > _______________________________________________ > Mosaic mailing list > [email protected] > To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to > http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/ > mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. > > Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. > > > _______________________________________________ > Mosaic mailing list > [email protected] > To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to > http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/ > mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. > > Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. > _______________________________________________ Mosaic mailing list [email protected] To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. 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