Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Manufacturing affordable large, new nixie tubes

Sat, 22 Apr 2017 07:42:28 -0700

My statement was made with no disrespect, but you are free to interpret it any way that you see fit. Much is often lost in the printed word rather than the spoken word, which is why I always prefer to have an actual conversation. It was meant to be emphatic. I still stick by it. These wannabe's should watch Dalibors' movie, more than once, perhaps if possible visit with Dalibor and see what it actually takes to do what he has accomplished. And accomplished he has, with a huge amount of success. But as already stated by others he has given YEARS of his life and GOBS of money to do what he has done, and I wish him much continued success as he certainly deserves it. IIRC he did not make a profit until February of this year. As for the wannabes, I'm not at all against anyone trying, so long as they know ahead of time what is realistic, and what is not. If Dalibor had not tried we wound not have his excellent tubes today. Who knows perhaps they will be able to produce a better product than Dalibor, but in my opinion probably not. Time will tell. Ira. 

On 4/22/2017 5:18 AM, Dylan Distasio wrote:

I was thinking the same thing.  If he's not asking for funding and is 
open about the risks, let everyone have a shot.  It should be encouraged.



That aside, I am anxiously awaiting my single tube clock using one of 
Dalibors beautiful tubes.  I had to settle for one tube for now.  I 
just got a Kickstarter update that the tubes have arrived!




On Apr 21, 2017 11:39 PM, "jb-electronics" 
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:


    Wow, now we did it. Is that really the message we want to send to
    a person who is looking into making Nixie tubes?

    I admire Dalibor for what he has achieved. Perhaps some of you
    remember that I tried the same and did not get far, this is my
    best "Nixie tube" I ever made:



    But all of this aside, I ask you if these comments are really
    helpful? Calling somebody a "wannabe" in a disrespectful manner?
    I, for one, like people who "want to" achieve something. Don't you?

    Cheers
    Jens



    On 4/21/2017 7:01 PM, Instrument Resources of America wrote:

    There are a LOT of WANNABE's out there that do NOT have the
    slightest clue as to what is involved in such a venture!!!   Ira.


    On 4/21/2017 9:41 AM, chuck richards wrote:

    Dalibor,

    Thanks again for all that you do.

    You obviously have devoted your whole life for the past several
    years to the manufacturing of high-quality brand new large nixie
    tubes.

    There will always be some folks on the side-lines who want to
    talk about and to theorize about "better" and "cheaper" methods
    of tube production.

    Not bloody likely!!

    What you have accomplished is most remarkable!

    I especially like reading the part where you explain that
    computers and automation don't help much.

    That is a fact that people who have never tried any production
    methods will argue with.  But, as you point out, once one actually
    does their experiments and starts learning how to get it done, one
    will find that computers and automation just can't cope with the
    entire situation very well at all.

    Again, congratulations to you and your entire team of dedicated
    people!

    Chuck





    ---- Original Message ----
    From: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
    To: [email protected]
    <mailto:[email protected]>
    Subject: RE: [neonixie-l] Re: Manufacturing affordable large, new
    nixie tubes
    Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 12:16:33 -0700 (PDT)


    Hello!

    I am sending few notes to this topic, from a perspective of
    someone

    who

    spent last 5 years exclusively in nixie tubes manufacture ;-)

    IMHO, $25 nixie tube is not possible. Nixie tubes were never so

    cheap, even

    in 60s, the less expensive tube from Burroughs was for $8
    (equal to

    today's

    $64) when bought in a quantity of 1000pcs, type B-5016, no
    mercury.

    Large

    tube (B-7094) were for $30 (today's $240). In this time, the
    nixie

    tubes

    were cutting edge technology with generous budget, hoard of R&D

    engineers

    and whole tube backing industry. They were produced in large

    quantities for

    lot of equipment, mostly measuring devices - almost never for

    digital

    clocks, they were simply expensive for consumer market.
    You can now find small tubes on eBay for around $5, mostly
    russian

    tubes -

    their price is now determined by market (what are hobbyists
    willing

    to pay

    for it), not manufacturing costs. They were produced in large

    volumes in

    soviet central planned economy, even when the demand was
    decreasing

    - this

    is why there are still full stocks of them in former soviet

    countries.

    You mention "current manufacturing methods", we actually dont
    have

    much new

    technologies which could simplify the nixie tube manufacture. The

    use of

    computers is very limited and doesnt help much. Also new

    technologies like

    laser cutting etc. doesnt help (only for machinery construction,

    jigs..).

    There are tens of operations involved in the

    assembly/sealing/pumping

    procedures - the quantity of machines needed for automated line

    would be

    big and their price very high. As NeonJohn suggested - few $M
    would

    be

    necessary just for the machinery. You would also soon find that

    automation

    make demands on supplier's tolerances ( e.g. glass thickness,

    diameter)

    which is beyond their standard production capabilities = back to

    hand

    processing.. This is one of the reason why large factories like

    Blackburn

    had own facilities for production of all the raw
    materials/prefabs.
    Last year, I had a meeting with people from german company
    producing
    glassworking machines - simple semiautomated machine just for

    sealing

    operation (stem/envelope) which still needs operator starts at

    $250.000 and

    its production capacity is not so high (my estimation was 30

    tubes/hour).

    And this is one of very few pieces of equipment you can purchase,

    the rest

    is necessary to develop - according to your specifications and

    process

    description.

    But even if you had a fully equiped factory now, it would take
    you

    long

    time to get to working nixie tubes. It is not about machines, but

    about the

    operator/R&D - you need to know when the tube is sufficiently

    degassed

    before filling, what purity of the raw material is necessary,
    purity

    of the

    gases, time for aging etc.. Many factors, each of them can
    make your

    tube

    prone to failure. Not immediately, but after year of operation
    for

    instance

    - your backers will not wait years until you come up with working
    combination..

    Some data from our business:
    - Our price for a tube is now set to $145.
    - We make around 130 tubes per month (+ handful of clocks) with

    monthly

    revenue of around 20.000 USD.
    - We are now a team of 5 people and this production volume
    makes us

    really

    busy (I work 7 days a week, all day long).
    - We need 250 square meters (2700sqft) of space for our current

    equipment.

    - As for the "butique price" - my monthly net salary is $384,
    I get

    paid

    since February 2017 ;-) But my people's salary is above
    average (for

    a

    given profession and our region).
    - I invested around $80.000 from my personal savings on the

    beginning

    I know that if I want to really succeed and earn money, I need to

    cut down

    the production costs. So I am step by step making our manufacture

    efficient

    with the intention to make our nixie tubes less expensive one
    day. I

    am

    investing our profit back to tooling/equipment, I am for example

    working on

    a high vacuum rotary manifold for carousel pumping machine with

    higher

    production capacity. I recently reverse-engineered Philips vacuum

    locking

    mechanism (tube clamping) for the same machine. But I am not
    sure if

    it is

    possible to make nixie tubes for below $60-80 even with high
    level

    of

    automation.

    I hope it doesnt sound too discouraging ;-) just my $0.02

    best regards,

    Dalibor Farny


    On Wednesday, 19 April 2017 11:52:06 UTC+2, Aiden Koh wrote:

    I'm a product engineer taking on a new project.
    With current manufacturing methods, I'm able to manufacture

    In-18/Z568M

    inspired nixie tubes, at a fraction of their market costs
    (sub 25

    USD/pc).

    I don't compromise on quality. hence, it will be built with
    parts

    mostly

    sourced from the US, and have the quality management system

    ISO-certified.

    However, due to overhead costs, such a price is only
    available if

    the

    minimum demand for said tubes is reached. Hence I can only

    commence with

    the project when I know that there is enough interest.

    What are your thoughts? Would it interest you if such tubes
    exist?

    show

    your support, and large, affordable nixie tubes may finally be

    within our

    grasp!


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