On 4/22/2017 10:07 AM, Jeff Walton wrote:
Any entrepreneur has to start with a passion for what they are trying to accomplish. Without this, the only guarantee is failure.The second hurdle is to develop a reliable, functional product that someone would want to purchase.If you are lucky enough to get this far, then you can work on manufacturability and achieving a price point that will be supported by demand, and cover the cost of production, overhead and profit.Each of these steps are difficult and can take years of effort and subsidy but that is how products are born… I give a lot of credit to those that make it to product launch and eventual profitability.*From:*[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Instrument Resources of America*Sent:* Saturday, April 22, 2017 9:42 AM *To:* [email protected]*Subject:* Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Manufacturing affordable large, new nixie tubesMy statement was made with no disrespect, but you are free to interpret it any way that you see fit. Much is often lost in the printed word rather than the spoken word, which is why I always prefer to have an actual conversation. It was meant to be emphatic. I still stick by it. These wannabe's should watch Dalibors' movie, more than once, perhaps if possible visit with Dalibor and see what it actually takes to do what he has accomplished. And accomplished he has, with a huge amount of success. But as already stated by others he has given YEARS of his life and GOBS of money to do what he has done, and I wish him much continued success as he certainly deserves it. IIRC he did not make a profit until February of this year. As for the wannabes, I'm not at all against anyone trying, so long as they know ahead of time what is realistic, and what is not. If Dalibor had not tried we wound not have his excellent tubes today. Who knows perhaps they will be able to produce a better product than Dalibor, but in my opinion probably not. Time will tell. Ira.On 4/22/2017 5:18 AM, Dylan Distasio wrote: I was thinking the same thing. If he's not asking for funding and is open about the risks, let everyone have a shot. It should be encouraged. That aside, I am anxiously awaiting my single tube clock using one of Dalibors beautiful tubes. I had to settle for one tube for now. I just got a Kickstarter update that the tubes have arrived! On Apr 21, 2017 11:39 PM, "jb-electronics" <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Wow, now we did it. Is that really the message we want to send to a person who is looking into making Nixie tubes? I admire Dalibor for what he has achieved. Perhaps some of you remember that I tried the same and did not get far, this is my best "Nixie tube" I ever made: But all of this aside, I ask you if these comments are really helpful? Calling somebody a "wannabe" in a disrespectful manner? I, for one, like people who "want to" achieve something. Don't you? Cheers Jens On 4/21/2017 7:01 PM, Instrument Resources of America wrote: There are a LOT of WANNABE's out there that do NOT have the slightest clue as to what is involved in such a venture!!! Ira. On 4/21/2017 9:41 AM, chuck richards wrote: Dalibor, Thanks again for all that you do. You obviously have devoted your whole life for the past several years to the manufacturing of high-quality brand new large nixie tubes. There will always be some folks on the side-lines who want to talk about and to theorize about "better" and "cheaper" methods of tube production. Not bloody likely!! What you have accomplished is most remarkable! I especially like reading the part where you explain that computers and automation don't help much. That is a fact that people who have never tried any production methods will argue with. But, as you point out, once one actually does their experiments and starts learning how to get it done, one will find that computers and automation just can't cope with the entire situation very well at all. Again, congratulations to you and your entire team of dedicated people! Chuck ---- Original Message ---- From: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Subject: RE: [neonixie-l] Re: Manufacturing affordable large, new nixie tubes Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 12:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Hello! I am sending few notes to this topic, from a perspective of someone who spent last 5 years exclusively in nixie tubes manufacture ;-) IMHO, $25 nixie tube is not possible. Nixie tubes were never so cheap, even in 60s, the less expensive tube from Burroughs was for $8 (equal to today's $64) when bought in a quantity of 1000pcs, type B-5016, no mercury. Large tube (B-7094) were for $30 (today's $240). In this time, the nixie tubes were cutting edge technology with generous budget, hoard of R&D engineers and whole tube backing industry. They were produced in large quantities for lot of equipment, mostly measuring devices - almost never for digital clocks, they were simply expensive for consumer market. You can now find small tubes on eBay for around $5, mostly russian tubes - their price is now determined by market (what are hobbyists willing to pay for it), not manufacturing costs. They were produced in large volumes in soviet central planned economy, even when the demand was decreasing - this is why there are still full stocks of them in former soviet countries. You mention "current manufacturing methods", we actually dont have much new technologies which could simplify the nixie tube manufacture. The use of computers is very limited and doesnt help much. Also new technologies like laser cutting etc. doesnt help (only for machinery construction, jigs..). There are tens of operations involved in the assembly/sealing/pumping procedures - the quantity of machines needed for automated line would be big and their price very high. As NeonJohn suggested - few $M would be necessary just for the machinery. You would also soon find that automation make demands on supplier's tolerances ( e.g. glass thickness, diameter) which is beyond their standard production capabilities = back to hand processing.. This is one of the reason why large factories like Blackburn had own facilities for production of all the raw materials/prefabs. Last year, I had a meeting with people from german company producing glassworking machines - simple semiautomated machine just for sealing operation (stem/envelope) which still needs operator starts at $250.000 and its production capacity is not so high (my estimation was 30 tubes/hour). And this is one of very few pieces of equipment you can purchase, the rest is necessary to develop - according to your specifications and process description. But even if you had a fully equiped factory now, it would take you long time to get to working nixie tubes. It is not about machines, but about the operator/R&D - you need to know when the tube is sufficiently degassed before filling, what purity of the raw material is necessary, purity of the gases, time for aging etc.. Many factors, each of them can make your tube prone to failure. Not immediately, but after year of operation for instance - your backers will not wait years until you come up with working combination.. Some data from our business: - Our price for a tube is now set to $145. - We make around 130 tubes per month (+ handful of clocks) with monthly revenue of around 20.000 USD. - We are now a team of 5 people and this production volume makes us really busy (I work 7 days a week, all day long). - We need 250 square meters (2700sqft) of space for our current equipment. - As for the "butique price" - my monthly net salary is $384, I get paid since February 2017 ;-) But my people's salary is above average (for a given profession and our region). - I invested around $80.000 from my personal savings on the beginning I know that if I want to really succeed and earn money, I need to cut down the production costs. So I am step by step making our manufacture efficient with the intention to make our nixie tubes less expensive one day. I am investing our profit back to tooling/equipment, I am for example working on a high vacuum rotary manifold for carousel pumping machine with higher production capacity. I recently reverse-engineered Philips vacuum locking mechanism (tube clamping) for the same machine. But I am not sure if it is possible to make nixie tubes for below $60-80 even with high level of automation. I hope it doesnt sound too discouraging ;-) just my $0.02 best regards, Dalibor Farny On Wednesday, 19 April 2017 11:52:06 UTC+2, Aiden Koh wrote: I'm a product engineer taking on a new project. With current manufacturing methods, I'm able to manufacture In-18/Z568M inspired nixie tubes, at a fraction of their market costs (sub 25 USD/pc). I don't compromise on quality. hence, it will be built with parts mostly sourced from the US, and have the quality management system ISO-certified. However, due to overhead costs, such a price is only available if the minimum demand for said tubes is reached. Hence I can only commence with the project when I know that there is enough interest. What are your thoughts? Would it interest you if such tubes exist? show your support, and large, affordable nixie tubes may finally be within our grasp!-- You received this message because you are subscribed to theGoogle Groups "neonixie-l" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>. To post to this group, send an email to [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>. To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/7b6b98ca-36c7-42e5-a93f- 9099a6830ca6%40googlegroups.com <http://40googlegroups.com>. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. $4.95/mo. National Dialup, Anti-Spam, Anti-Virus, 5mb personal web space. 5x faster dialup for only $9.95/mo. No contracts, No fees, No Kidding! 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