hi ike i'm trying one more thing this week, and call you then,i'll be
smarter.
barak
On Jan 31, 2010, at 9:27 PM, Ike Zimbel wrote:
Okay, I just set up a skype account. I'm Zapaudiotech.
best,
Ike
p.s. I brought my Elite manual home with me, too.
On 1/31/2010 2:51 PM, BARAK KOREN wrote:
do you skype?if yes i'm use name:babadude if not what tel nr. can
i call?
barak
On Jan 31, 2010, at 8:45 PM, Ike Zimbel wrote:
Hi Barak,
I think if the power supplies were causing the problem, you
would be hearing this on every output, Busses, Aux sends, Monitors
(by themselves, independent of source selected) etc.
I have lost track of what you have tried and verified and what
you haven't. Maybe you could give me a call?
best,
Ike
On 1/31/2010 2:33 PM, BARAK KOREN wrote:
hi u all the good helpers...
i bought the console in august this year ,through internet from a
shop called primal gear(they said there are a few cracking
switches -nothing special...)
when console arrived(september- to holland amsterdam) i
immediately checked, patched -sprayed (F5 Caig) and starting
mixing an album...
i could hear the hum right away ...asked help from mike ...and
found you guys...
next thing i'll try is to take the audio +/- 18v from a different
psu and see what does that do.
Barak -open for all the ideas you have
On Jan 31, 2010, at 8:13 PM, Ike Zimbel wrote:
Hi Brian and Matt,
Brian, for the record, I believe that console you are talking
about was an Elan. Matt, the "Neotek Sound" that I am familiar
with definitely does NOT include power and ground hum. As I
mentioned earlier, I have heard about Neotek consoles having
noise problems but none of the consoles that I have been
involved with over the past 20+ years (close to 350 channels of
Elite, ELite II, Elan and Series II) have exhibited the problem
that Barak is talking about, nor the problem and fix that Brian
has described here. Most of the consoles that I have dealt with
have an un-weighted noise floor below -82.00dbu, with one Elite
II that I have done a lot of upgrades on hovering around
-90.00dbu. Having said that, when I look at an FFT of the noise
spectrum on those consoles, the dominant frequencies are 60, 120
and 180hz. So, the consoles are definitely _/susceptible/_ to
power and grounding noise issues.
But, my point here is that in spite of "doing everything
wrong", the consoles are usually quiet, and therefore what Barak
is dealing with, and what Brian described should be treated as
anomalies, that should be solvable. In the case of the Elan that
Brian mentions, it is clearly something that went wrong in the
manufacturing process. Like what? We may never know, but maybe a
bonehead mistake like getting the shield and Tip or Ring mixed
up in some signal runs to and from the patch bay...like the 2-
mix insert. Sometimes these things are very hard to find. 30
years ago I was the production manager for a company that made
lighting consoles here in Toronto. There was ONE factory
defective desk that we built, out of about 100+ units, (which,
ironically ended up being purchased by my very own brother...)
The console worked perfectly and passed all of its pre-delivery
tests. Once out the shop door, however, it started having
problems with "ghosting" in the dimmers it was connected to. I
looked the thing over on site and never could find the problem.
Eventually the desk was traded in, and, sometime after I had
left the company, underwent some sort of re-build (I think a
"stretch" to add more channels). During the course of this work,
an un-used centre-tap wire on the power transformer was found
crushed between the base of the transformer and the chassis.
This was leaking half of the secondary voltage onto the chassis,
upsetting the DC ground that the dimming circuits referenced,
causing the dimmers to "ghost". So parts get put in wrong,
connections are mis-wired, wires get pinched etc.
In the case of Barak's console, there are still some questions
that need to be answered. In particular, Barak, did you ever own
this console when it wasn't exhibiting this problem?
I have a few more thoughts on this but, I will save them for
another post...or two.
best,
Ike
On 1/29/2010 6:02 AM, Matt Syson wrote:
Hi
I have to say that my experience of Neotek's is limited to a
series 1 (in the flesh) but the wiring and particularly
grounding, appalled me, having spent 30 or more years un
humming desks for several manufacturers.
There may be a 'following' for the 'Neotek sound' but there are
so many fundamental 'wrongs' going on.
Metalwork, DC power ground and 'mix bus reference ground should
all be separate until intentionally joined at one defined
point, not scattered randomly around the chassis.
Having to fiddle inside the supply to 'null' the hum from there
suggests very poor layout and wiring practice.
The 'sound' may be great but you have to work for it and try to
preserve it against interference from multiple sources.
Matt S
Brian Roth wrote:
Hello Ike, et al:
I recall a new Neotek desk that was delivered here in OKC...
20+ years ago. I cannot recall if it was an Elan or Elite.
From DAY ONE it had "hum issues" on every bus. As I worked
with it, I was shocked to discover the grounding system, which
was "every ground was connected to every ground", including
random connections to the metal work on the front panels.
This was a NEW desk from Chicago.
Audio ground returns were randomly connected to the front
panel metal.
I quickly tested the desk with a battery=powered power amp/
speaker combo in order to eliminate any wiring probs, with no
I/O besides my battery-powered system, and at other times my
iso'ed scope.
It still hummed/buzzed. Many other tests done..including one
oddity...as I "unscrewed" modules from the frame, the noise
changed.
Desk's owner yelled and cried at "Chicago", with no replies
for months. Desk owner SCREAMED, and finally had a reply
apparently from the "unknown mystery circuit designer"...
Solution? Install six or eight feet of 18 or 16 GA wiring
INSIDE of the PS-3 (??) PSU box in series with the "ground
return" wiring, and then fuck with the positioning of that
series "wads of wire" inside of the PSU to "null" the noise.
That came directly from "Chicago".
Egads.....
Best,
Bri
Ike wrote:
Hi Jim, Matt, Barak,
The Elite is different from the Series boards in that the
motherboard is only the width of the master section - 4
modules. The channel modules buss thru 4 x 16 way .100 ribbon
cables and 8 x 3 way .156 Molex headers to the patchbay,
fader and meter. So pulling modules is a bit more
complicated. However it is not hard to disconnect one or both
sides of the desk in one go by pulling the .100 headers from
the bottom of the motherboard.
Fitting the master modules in the motherboard is a pain
and has been the topic of another recent thread.
Barak, have you done anything with the master
modules? Another thing you could try is to remove the FX
return and Aux master modules (desk will run without them) so
you can see how the stereo master module is fitting in the
motherboard. There may be some Molex pins bent, missing or
not making proper contact. Try pushing up on the motherboard
and see if the hum changes or goes away. Also check to see if
the ground strap is bolted to the bottom of the mother board.
Best
Ike
--
Ike Zimbel
Zimbel Audio Productions Ltd.
Toronto
416-720-0887
"Studio House Calls". Authorized Warranty service for Allen&
Heath, Clear-Com, Drawmer, Soundcraft, SPL and Yamaha. Repairs
and upgrades to analog audio equipment including: AMEK, dbx,
Neve, Neotek, MCI, Soundcraft and more. Ask about our RF
Frequency co-ordination services!
www.zimbelaudio.com
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Vive Le Neotek!
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--
Ike Zimbel
Zimbel Audio Productions Ltd.
Toronto
416-720-0887
"Studio House Calls". Authorized Warranty service for Allen&
Heath, Clear-Com, Drawmer, Soundcraft, SPL and Yamaha. Repairs and
upgrades to analog audio equipment including: AMEK, dbx, Neve,
Neotek, MCI, Soundcraft and more. Ask about our RF Frequency co-
ordination services!
www.zimbelaudio.com
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You can unsubscribe at anytime by sending an email to mailto:[email protected]
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difficulties, or questions --please send an email to mailto:[email protected]
.
The Neotek list is lovingly hosted by Catapult Web. Remember that
any message or reply sent to the list will be automatically
forwarded to all subscribers.
Vive Le Neotek!
Thanks.
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The Neotek list is lovingly hosted by Catapult Web. Remember that
any message or reply sent to the list will be automatically
forwarded to all subscribers.
Vive Le Neotek!
Thanks.
--
Ike Zimbel
Zimbel Audio Productions Ltd.
Toronto
416-720-0887
"Studio House Calls". Authorized Warranty service for Allen& Heath,
Clear-Com, Drawmer, Soundcraft, SPL and Yamaha. Repairs and upgrades
to analog audio equipment including: AMEK, dbx, Neve, Neotek, MCI,
Soundcraft and more. Ask about our RF Frequency co-ordination
services!
www.zimbelaudio.com
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