[Winona Online Democracy]
Hello Winona Online Democracy,
I wanted to respond to some of Gene Thiele's points.
Gene, first of all, I want to say I'm glad you live in Winona. You liven
up any discussion. Every community needs a few devil's advocates.
Seriously, even though I disagree with some of your points of view, I
respect them because they are well thought out.
;->
Some quick responses to your points.
1. 1960 Election: What happened in Mayor Daly's Chicago during 1960 was
wrong, no denying that! But does that mean we should overlook the almost
30,000 disqualied votes in Palm Beach County? George W. Bush's brother is
the Governor of Florida. His father is the former head of the CIA, an
organization that is infamous for affecting elections in countries all
around the globe. I did not vote for either Mr. Bush or Mr. Gore. I am
worried about either of them in office. I don't have any partisan axes to
grind. Why can't they simply vote again in Palm Beach County or any other
county in the country where things are as bad as they are in parts of
Florida? I can't believe that those kinds of "irregularities" are usually
tolerated.
2. The Oppressed 1%: Sometimes I can't tell when you are being serious and
when you are just saying something to elicit reactions out of others. Do
you really think the richest 1% of Americans suffer under the current
political system?
3. Democratic Improvements: You mentioned the abolition of slavery,
women's sufferage, and the Civil Right's Movement of the 1960's. It always
interests me when Conservatives talk of those things. In your opinion, how
did those things come about? How did the Consevatives of the time react to
those bleeding heart, liberal, and radical ideas?
4. Changing the Constitution: You are right, it should not be changed
often. At the same time, when should it be changed? Most of the modern
world's democracies have more mature democracies than ours mainly because
they were created after our Constitution was. They made improvements on
older models. Should we take a good hard look at our system of democracy?
My gosh, 3 billion dollars spent on an election that garnered only 53 % of
the vote. Our system is so ripe with corruption and cyncism, it's scary.
5. Critizing on the 1960's: The last line of your message read, "And
imagine what kind of constitution might have come out of the sixties!".
What exactly worries you about the 60's? The Civil Right's Movement? The
Peace Movement that refused to blindly follow orders and which most of it's
points were proven right by recent admissions of govt. and military leaders
of the time? Or were you worried about the 1860's when the 13th, 14th, and
15th Amendments were passed? These were the Amendments that outlawed
slavery and stated citizenship could not be denied based on race.
Remember, how liberal and radical those ideas were?
Please pardon my grammar, I have a 3 and 2 year old playing all about me.
:->
Dwayne
============
>From: "Gene Thiele" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: [Winona] RE: Election
>Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 21:42:34 -0600
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>[Winona Online Democracy]
>
>Dean,
>
>You inadvertently make the ideal argument for the electoral college. What
>if, in 1960, several voting machines in key republican districts of Illinois
>just disappear. Kennedy might have won the election by less than 200,000
>votes. Oh, sorry. That did happen.
>
>The electoral college, from what the talking heads on TV are saying (and
>they seem to know more about it than I do), was intended to prevent the
>presidential election from becoming a popularity contest. (Since you're
>reminiscing about high school, think about the king and queen of prom.)
>Imagine if a candidate were to target a segment of the population, say the
>richest 1%, and tell the other 99% he was going to tax that 1% into
>oblivion. Not only that but he was going to redistribute that money to the
>99% through a series of government entitlements. That would certainly
>garner some votes, perhaps even 48% of the votes. Oh, sorry. That happened
>too.
>
>To be serious for a moment, the fact that America is not a pure democracy,
>and is in fact a republic, has redeemed us to this point. We have delegated
>our voice to a representative that we expect to act in the public good. If
>we were to submit to majority rule, we may not have ever attained abolition
>in the 19th century, suffrage for blacks, women, and non-property owners in
>the 20th century, or civil rights in the 60's. If majority rules, we'd be
>governed by polls. If majority rules, partial birth abortion would be
>banned, all the public schools would be Christian, and you would never see
>civil unions for homosexual couples.
>
>Perhaps the solution is a compromise. Let the congressional district
>representatives carry their own votes into the electoral college. The lines
>are already drawn, it's how the votes are dolled out to the states now.
>Then let the 2 senatorial votes be cast for the majority candidate within
>the state, or split based on a tie. It brings us one step closer to the
>popular vote and still honors the original intent of the founders.
>
>In any case, we have to be very careful of messing with our constitution.
>It is old but enduring, and has served us well. We could write another
>constitution every generation or so, but then we'd be no better off than
>France. And imagine what kind of constitution might have come out of the
>sixties!
>
>gene thiele
>winona, mn
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 11:57 PM
>Subject: RE: [Winona] RE: Election
>
>
>> [Winona Online Democracy]
>>
>> Cherisa;
>> This may date me a bit, but i remember walking into my Sophomore (High
>> School)
>> English class the day after the election in 68 and our teacher who was
>from
>> Chicago
>> telling those of us in the class who were Humphry backers not to worry
>> because
>> Mayor Daily in Chicago would "Find enough votes" for him in Chicago that
>he
>> would
>> pull it off.
>> Alas he was wrong, but other than that i don't remember anything
>resembling
>> this
>> mess.
>> Not to get on my soapbox here which may not be the proper form, but i
>think
>> this
>> shows beyond a doubt the need to amend the Constitution to do away with
>the
>> electoral college.
>> Dean.
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------
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>>
>
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**********************************************************
Dwayne and Denine Voegeli
Social Studies and Science Teachers
Winona Senior High School
901 W. Gilmore Ave.
Winona, MN 55987 USA
Home Voice Mail: (507) 453-9012
School telephone number: (507) 454-9509
E-mail address: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Personal Web Page: http://www.jarviscomputer.com/voegeli
High School Web Site: http://wshs.luminet.net/
A Web Site About the City of Winona: http://winonanet.com/home.html
"Education is not preparation for life, education is life itself."
-- John Dewey
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