I appreciate your response. Honestly, I have been finding that as of late, I have been coming up against these "definition" issues with greater frequency.
I don't claim to be an expert. I'm probably – mostly – an idiot in this field, but I did figure out a way to discern if the utterance of a speaker (human) is a question or a statement, with 98.4% accuracy. It even can detect an indirect question as well as a direct question. I found … a pattern – in English speech, and I coded it. Can my robots *answer* the question when it is detected – mostly no. But they can identify the utterance better than anything I've tried from any other source. Beyond this, my last message to you regards recognizing patterns in data, the way scripts recognize patterns in an image. Often they are all just three dimensional matrices. For example, would it be possible to "train" (hold on here… lol) a net to recognize a given data pattern, then have it look at different databases/data lakes/wads of random data… and recognize if that particular data pattern existed in those other regions? I apologize if I'm oversimplifying things. I'm imagining that data structures would share a common architecture across disparate fields, and may be recognized in this manner. Again, I may be overstepping my experience, and I apologize for wasting your time if so. I have had some very rewarding experiences with language parsing/understanding based on coding for patterns that were simply determined from my own neurology/intuitions as a native speaker of the language I code in (English). My intuitions tell me that there are possibly ways to view data in the same way as we view images, and to recognize a "data image" in much the same way. You are correct, I believe, that neural nets can't spot patterns. But humans can. That seems to be one thig we do really well. But I believe if we feed neural nets examples of patterns, instead of things – can we come up with something new? I wish I had better words here. While I can see the structures I am referring to, I can't seem to really articulate them… Feel free to tell me to go back to Comp Sci 101 if I am not offering anything here, I won't be offended 😊 I love what you are all doing here. I spend a lot of time imagining cognitive architectures and methods of creating something akin to genuine "understanding" in a coded base…. Feel free to tell me to shut up and leave you alone 😊 Dave From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Linas Vepstas Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2020 8:26 PM To: opencog <[email protected]> Cc: link-grammar <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [opencog-dev] Re: [Link Grammar] Sutton's bitter lesson The word "training" is problematic. If you mean "memorize an association list of pairs" (e.g. faces+text-string) well, technically that is "training" in the AI jargon file, but it's of little utility for AGI. The word "pattern" is problematic. Exactly what a "pattern" is, is ... tricky. Much (most? almost all?) of my effort is about trying to define "what is a pattern, anyway". I'm not sure what you had in mind, when you used that word. (Its a tricky word. Everyone obviously knows what it means, but how to turn it into an algorithmically graspable "thing"?) --linas On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 6:44 PM Dave Xanatos <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: "If you can't spot the pattern, you've not accomplished anything." Every significant – and truly useful - advance I've made on my own language apprehension code has been based on recognizing a pattern, and coding for it. I fully agree. Can a neural network be trained on patterns instead of things? Can code designed to recognize – for example, faces (like eigenfaces) – be trained to instead recognize blocks of data that look the same, despite perhaps being in vastly dissimilar fields? Apologies if I'm intruding, or seem to be "out of my lane"… a popular buzzword these days. Dave – LONG time lurker… From: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > On Behalf Of Linas Vepstas Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2020 6:54 PM To: link-grammar <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; opencog <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: [opencog-dev] Re: [Link Grammar] Sutton's bitter lesson Well yes. What's truly remarkable is how frequently that lesson has to be re-learned. There are vast swaths of the AI industry that still have not learned it, and are deluding themselves into thinking that they've made bold progress, when they've gotten nowhere at all, and seem blithely unaware that they are repeating the same mistake... again. I refer, of course, to the deep-learning true-believers. They have made the fundamental mistake of thinking that their various network designs provide an adequate representation of reality. How little do they seem to realize that all that code, running hand-tuned on some GPU is just, and I quote Sutton, here: "leveraged human understanding of the special structure of chess". Except, cross out "chess" and replace with "dimensional reduction" or "weight vector" or whatever buzzword-bingo is popular in the deep-learning field these days. I'm back again to insisting that "patterns matter". If you can't spot the pattern, you've not accomplished anything. Neural nets can't spot patterns. They're certainly interesting for various reasons, but, as an AGI technology, they are every bit a dead-end as the hand-crafted English link-grammar dictionary. This is one reason I'm sort of plinking away, working on unfashionable things. I'm thinking simply that they are more generic. and more powerful. But perhaps the problem is recursive: perhaps I'm just "leveraging my human understanding of the special structure of patterns", and will hit a wall someday. For now, it seems that my wall is more distant. If only I could convince others ... --linas On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 5:14 PM Paul McQuesten <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: Linas, I think this reinforces your view of learning from data, instead of adding more human-curated rules: http://incompleteideas.net/IncIdeas/BitterLesson.html -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "link-grammar" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> . To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/link-grammar/464d1f92-00b7-4780-870a-2156229b4567o%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/link-grammar/464d1f92-00b7-4780-870a-2156229b4567o%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> . -- Verbogeny is one of the pleasurettes of a creatific thinkerizer. --Peter da Silva -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "opencog" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> . To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAHrUA36x8QBXGUg4f9BMw5StdhRu1WFjFr_9ySo_vZesMeZrTA%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAHrUA36x8QBXGUg4f9BMw5StdhRu1WFjFr_9ySo_vZesMeZrTA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "opencog" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> . To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/002701d65d5d%244fdc07d0%24ef941770%24%40xanatos.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/002701d65d5d%244fdc07d0%24ef941770%24%40xanatos.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> . -- Verbogeny is one of the pleasurettes of a creatific thinkerizer. --Peter da Silva -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "opencog" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> . To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAHrUA368NNEmjBsg_09%3DG7yJOdT2Ur%3DBMYvEZPFh2k_HiWNx7w%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAHrUA368NNEmjBsg_09%3DG7yJOdT2Ur%3DBMYvEZPFh2k_HiWNx7w%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "opencog" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/004001d65d80%24c71a8790%24554f96b0%24%40xanatos.com.
