> Chicken-fried steak? Do we need to make you an honorary Texan? Linas, I can't work in such an atmosphere. If that’s the best you can offer, we need to split up. In that case, thank you all for your time but this is too much for me.
- ivan - uto, 21. ruj 2021. u 22:07 Linas Vepstas <[email protected]> napisao je: > Hi, > > On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 5:00 AM Ivan V. <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Ok then. > > > > I've got this > > Chicken-fried steak? Do we need to make you an honorary Texan? > > > and this, and I've got some free time. Let me know if I can be useful > regarding the OpenCog visualization attempt. > > There are two large datasets here: https://linas.org/datasets/ > Neither are "deep", (hierarchical deep) both are "broad" (have many > connections) > > By contrast, Nil's inference trees are more likely to be deep. > > -- linas > > > > > All best, > > Ivan > > > > sub, 10. srp 2021. u 18:53 Ivan V. <[email protected]> napisao je: > >> > >> Hi all :) > >> > >> Just thinking out loud, these may be some suggestions... > >> > >> How hard is it to implement a theorem prover in Atomese? (narrow, but > noticeable user base; a strong potential for graph visualization) > >> How hard is it to implement a math expression solver in Atomese? (wider > user base; weaker potential for graph visualization) > >> How hard is it to implement a program code synthesis system in Atomese? > (well, this should be the future of programming; almost none potential for > graph visualization) > >> > >> Do I miss something more ear-catching, and more applicable to graph > visualization? Does this make any sense at all with fitting into the big > OpenCog picture? Lastly, does anyone have any interest in contributing to > any of these use cases? > >> > >> And another "hey" from my littleness - according to Linas' > visualisation idea, if someone decides to roll on the whole thing, and if > server side scripting not a problem, I would be interested in sponsoring > the OpenCog foundation with a fractal graph visualizer for tree structures > repo that I'm developing for some time now. Of course, I am able to adjust > the visualizer licence to OpenCog licencing standards, and I'm prepared for > very flexible terms, so no worries from that side. > >> > >> Be well, > >> Ivan > >> > >> > >> sub, 10. srp 2021. u 07:27 Ivan V. <[email protected]> napisao je: > >>> > >>> May I ask did you solve the problem from bullet No. 1? Who will use it > and for which purpose? > >>> > >>> uto, 6. srp 2021. u 00:54 Linas Vepstas <[email protected]> > napisao je: > >>>> > >>>> Hi Mike, > >>>> > >>>> On Mon, Jul 5, 2021 at 11:30 AM Michael Duncan <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> linus, here is a suggestion for a useful domain agnostic graphical > interface to attract opensource devs to opencog and lower the learning > curve for the opencog system. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Yes. The way I like to think of it is "people like visual bling, so > how can we make the tutorials visual and entertaining?" > >>>> > >>>>> start with a knowledge metagraph complex enough to be a useful for > the "intro to opencog" tutorial, which would include the atoms in all the > examples. some subset of SUMO small enough to fit into a low end laptop > (4-8G ram?) is one possibility but i'm guessing because i haven't actually > played with SUMO or any of the examples except for the ones in the unit > tests... > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> I'm certain that 100% of SUMO will easily fit into a few hundred > megabytes, and probably a lot less. (Size is not a problem; the AtomSpace > has been very highly optimized for size and speed.) My only problem with > SUMO is "what is it good for?" or "what can you do with it?" -- someone > would need to figure that out. > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ideally there would be a public server running the demo system so > users could run the examples from their phone or a netbook, with step by > step instructions for setting up a local instance for more ambitious users > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> There are several places where such servers could be run; I have > several public servers (for other things) literally within arms length. > There's already a cloud instance hosting the opencog site; it could also be > used. So availability of servers/compute is not an issue. Heck, you could > run the whole thing on a raspberry pi, I think ... > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> a dashboard shows stats for the complete atomspace (type counts for > atoms, data sources, etc), and a menu for pulling example sub-metagraphs > from the atomspace server > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> grafana was suggested for that ... > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> paired visualizer windows based on atomspace explorer code > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Well, but the atomspace explorer code doesn't work, which is what > started this conversation. It would require a large amount of effort to fix > it ... Recall, Lansana suggested that we should throw it away, and replace > it with some other system, written in React. ... > >>>> > >>>> In other words .. start from scratch. Ooof. The only rule of the game > here is the person doing the work gets to pick the tools being used. The > only advice is a trope from ancient Kung Fu movies: "choose wisely". > >>>> > >>>> Hey, if someone else writes some code to take a flat file of atomese > in it, and visualize it, I'll write the code to hook it up to a live > atomspace. > >>>> > >>>> --linas > >>>> > >>>>> to show the graph representation of the atomese metagraph and the > more conventional knowledge graph triplet translation of the data based on > the mozi parsing code. hovering over nodes or links in either view would > show more detailed info and highlight corresponding objects in the other > viewer. > >>>>> > >>>>> each viewer has an editor to visually construct new graphs, directly > in atomese in the explorer version or as node-link-node triples in the > conventional window that gets translated into atomese in the explorer > window. > >>>>> > >>>>> new sub-metagraphs could then be added to the existing atomspace or > a new atomspace depending on server resources. add a pattern matcher > interface window and new metagraphs could be used to query the atomspace. > >>>>> > >>>>> make some jupyter notebooks of the examples accessible from the > server with instructions for following along in the editor and you've > expanded the potential audience for opencog by several orders of magnitude. > >>>>> > >>>>> On Sunday, July 4, 2021 at 5:49:58 PM UTC-4 [email protected] wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Sunday, 4 July 2021 at 23:34:50 UTC+2 Adrian Borucki wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Saturday, 3 July 2021 at 03:48:53 UTC+2 linas wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hi Lansana, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 11:58 PM Lansana Camara <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Keep in mind that even Grafana's UI is built in JavaScript ;) > building a modern frontend like what you're seeking using a language like > C/C++ would be an anti-pattern. It's simply harder to do it that way. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> We hear you. You have a very strong opinion. But before you say, > once again, how hard C and C++ is, and how easy javascript is, you should > try Glade. https://glade.gnome.org/ And not just try it, but get good > with it. Build an app with it. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Ah, I remember toying with Glade… a decade ago. I don’t think > GNOME developers use it anymore - GNOME Shell itself uses JavaScript > nowadays for example. > >>>>>>> A better proposition for C++ would be QtCreator because it and Qt > framework at least are supposed to be cross platform - there is a UI > designer in QtCreator of course. > >>>>>>> All in all the problem with these is that they make you stuck with > a specific tool (Glade / QtCreator) and framework (GTK+ / Qt) and none of > those are particularly popular anymore (besides GTK+’s niche in Linux > world). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> There is another drawback I forgot to mention -- Glade (as well as > QtCreator) do not generate code for the GUI (they only generate code stubs > for signals/slots). Glade saves an XML (QtCreator has something similar, I > don’t remember if it’s XML) which then has to be loaded by GtkBuilder to > build the interface on the fly (similar mechanism for Qt) -- this means > that if in the future you want to modify this interface you *have* to use > those particular tools or learn to navigate XML manually, you do not get > everything represented by understandable code, the GUI representation will > be more obscured by the process. One advantage of the tools below on the > other hand is that they seem to produce actual JS code, so a programmer can > just modify it as they see fit later on and you’re not locked to those > tools. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Now, if we had some kind of app builder for javascript, then, > yes, you might have a point. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> A quick search shows that there are some options for JS too, like > https://openchakra.app, https://reactstudio.com or https://builderx.io. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> But as long as you use words like "anti-pattern", that is just > bomb-throwing. It basically illustrates that .. I dunno .. you are young > and inexperienced, and haven't been around the block, yet. There's much, > much more to this big wide world than what your friends are talking about. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> When you drink the Kool-Aide, ask yourself, "what did they put in > this stuff?" > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> --linas > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 9:53 AM Abdulrahman Semrie < > [email protected]> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Hi Linas, > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> (Sorry for not responding earlier. As Mike have explained, I'm > on vacation and don't check my e-mail regularly. I should be able to answer > more questions when I'm back next week) > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> More or less, the three requirements that you mentioned above > have either been partially implemented (1) or were planned to be > implemented (2 & 3) in the previous Mozi platform iteration, albeit using > the (now old?) Python API of the AtomSpace. The code for both the backend > and frontend is available on gitlab in a private Mozi repository. I should > probably export it to github and make it public. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Going through the list of requirements: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> 1) We had an interface to create an AtomSpace from a scheme > file but back then we had issues keeping the imported data into separate > AtomSpaces and accessing them independently. If you remember. this is > before you implemented the copy-on-write functionality. However, with the > AtomSpace gRPC server that I wrote few months back, this is possible and I > have been using multiple atomspaces to run annotation tasks but haven't > developed a generic UI around it. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> 2) I was actually planning to extend the gRPC server by > integrating it with Grafana for monitoring purposes. Unfortunately, I > didn't find the time to implement it. AFAIK, Grafana handles much of the UI > stuff and only needs some API for it to be used as a dashboard/monitoring > tool. I think this is easier than writing a new UI code. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> 3) For the visualization, in addition to the visualizer in > https://github.com/opencog/external-tools/, we developed our own custom > Cytospace visualizer that visualized atoms representing biochemical > entities using custom layouts. This is the visualizer used in the > annotation service you linked above. The main issue we had with the > Cytoscape visualizer was calculating the layout algorithms on the front-end > when the size of the graph got bigger. I suppose anyone who wants to use a > data explorer with the atomspace will eventually run into such a > performance issue as the atomspace gets bigger. To resolve this, I created > a small library that runs the layout algorithm on the backend and send the > coordinates of the nodes and edges to the front-end. This code is not > generic but some part of it can be reused or it can be refactored to make > it generic. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > Maybe a kind-of-like jupyter for the atomspace. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> This kind of functionality was also implemented on the old Mozi > platform using cogserver but it needs updating. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> In conclusion, a skeleton of what you have listed above exists, > but needs refactoring to make it generic/reusable and also merge it into > one tool/product. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, June 26, 2021 at 10:04:34 PM UTC+3 linas wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Xabush, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> So I have a tough question for you: the MOZI webserver ... > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> I'm trying to solve a meta-problem: I want to increase > developer engagement in opencog/atomspace. For that, it would be nice to > have a web UI. Three of them actually, or four. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> 1) A web UI that allows users to create new atomspaces, and > put (by hand) some atoms into it, and visualize simple graphs. So, people > can point their browser at it, and mess around. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> 2) A job control panel web UI. So, for the language learning > project, I have a collection of bash scripts that start and stop the > atomspace, and ingest text files, and take hours or days to run. I thought > of MOZI because it has some similar requirements. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> 3) A data explorer. Given an atomspace, with say, millions of > atoms (from language learning, or from biochem), I want to explore what's > inside of it: print all atoms in some cluster, ranked by frequency, or plot > some histogram of mutual information vs frequency or whatever. Maybe a > kind-of-like jupyter for the atomspace. Again, I think of the MOZI work in > this direction. You were trying to get a simple web UI for biochemists to > use. I want the same deal, but for linguists. Under the covers, it's all > the same stuff: just atoms in the atomspace. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> How can this be accomplished? You've built some kind of custom > solution for 2 & 3 for MOZI, but I don't understand how to backtrack out of > that, and custom-tailor it so that it works for language learning instead > of ChEBI or PubChem. Any ideas? > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> I mean, you and Hedra have put a lot of effort into these > things... > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> I see things like this: > >>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/MOZI-AI/annotation-service > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> and this: > >>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/MOZI-AI/annotation-service-ui > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> And I'd like to have it work for the kinds of graphs and > systems in the language-learning codebase, instead of biochemistry. What > would it take to have that work? Do I really have to start from scratch? Is > there a way to recycle any of the work that you've done, and use it for > other applications? > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> I don't want to go off and state the obvious, but maybe I > should go off and state the obvious: if this web UI stuff was generic, then > other users could use it, which means that other users could show up and > help fix bugs and add features. It would grow the project overall ... it > would help anyone interested in the atomspace and in singularitynet and all > that jazz ... > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> BTW, back in the days of Hanson Robotics, we had the same > problem ... I think we throw a lot of money at some Brazillian to create a > WebUI for the Owyl behavior tree subsystem, but .. of course, that code > failed with the AtomSpace, so it was like .. wasted money, wasted effort. > .. we still don't have a generic AtomSpace WebUI ... > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> -- Linas > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>>>> Patrick: Are they laughing at us? > >>>>>>>>>>> Sponge Bob: No, Patrick, they are laughing next to us. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the > Google Groups "opencog" group. > >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from > it, send an email to [email protected]. > >>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/d16f492c-26f2-4f21-807e-e02cfd8f7c6cn%40googlegroups.com > . > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the > Google Groups "opencog" group. > >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from > it, send an email to [email protected]. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAPPXERrWx4%2B59Kf163pAnmyaOD%2B5bbQ0pSJ89vFbE50CPrSLNw%40mail.gmail.com > . > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>> Patrick: Are they laughing at us? > >>>>>>>> Sponge Bob: No, Patrick, they are laughing next to us. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "opencog" group. > >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > send an email to [email protected]. > >>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/b750b969-6cb6-4303-b986-7e963e0d90bfn%40googlegroups.com > . > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Patrick: Are they laughing at us? > >>>> Sponge Bob: No, Patrick, they are laughing next to us. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "opencog" group. > >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > send an email to [email protected]. > >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAHrUA35tErzxe%3D%2Bj2hObh36d__4Ghmi_u7b9cJ3LuK8PD%3DeXsQ%40mail.gmail.com > . > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "opencog" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to [email protected]. > > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAB5%3Dj6Uyjdc4DLmGwrV%2Bn77Yybv4RR1-9yHUifRAhrbisDnejw%40mail.gmail.com > . > > > > -- > Patrick: Are they laughing at us? > Sponge Bob: No, Patrick, they are laughing next to us. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "opencog" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAHrUA37CeXb842bPi2QP6W9f%2B41PWLZQvi9gKJqmD3-vOUeBoQ%40mail.gmail.com > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "opencog" group. 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