Linas, All right, I'll swallow your unsavory joke, but I don't like it.
As for the visualization tool, I'll have more time in a few weeks when I settle some of my obligations. Then, a kind of OpenCog debugger (or IDE) is what I have on my mind. It would be something like an atomspace editor communicating to cogserver, showing inference trees related to edited fragments. Nothing too fancy, no dozens of options, just a simple atomspace expressions writing aid, as minimalistic as it can get, with an editor on the left and related inference trees on the right side. I hope to get some answers from you guys about cogserver details if I get stuck. I'll try to keep you informed about the project progress. Thank you, Ivan sri, 22. ruj 2021. u 17:31 Linas Vepstas <[email protected]> napisao je: > On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 11:26 PM Ivan V. <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Chicken-fried steak? Do we need to make you an honorary Texan? > > > > Linas, I can't work in such an atmosphere. If that’s the best you can > offer, we need to split up. In that case, thank you all for your time but > this is too much for me. > > !? I'm confused. > > Your demo had the words "chicken steak" in it. I've travelled around > the world, and the only place that I know of that has "chicken steak" > on restaurant menus is Texas. They have it in Germany too, but it's > called "Weiner schnitzel" there. (There are a lot of Germans in > Texas.) But you wrote "chicken steak" and not " Weiner schnitzel" ... > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_fried_steak > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schnitzel > > -- linas > > > > > > - ivan - > > > > uto, 21. ruj 2021. u 22:07 Linas Vepstas <[email protected]> > napisao je: > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 5:00 AM Ivan V. <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > > >> > Ok then. > >> > > >> > I've got this > >> > >> Chicken-fried steak? Do we need to make you an honorary Texan? > >> > >> > and this, and I've got some free time. Let me know if I can be useful > regarding the OpenCog visualization attempt. > >> > >> There are two large datasets here: https://linas.org/datasets/ > >> Neither are "deep", (hierarchical deep) both are "broad" (have many > >> connections) > >> > >> By contrast, Nil's inference trees are more likely to be deep. > >> > >> -- linas > >> > >> > > >> > All best, > >> > Ivan > >> > > >> > sub, 10. srp 2021. u 18:53 Ivan V. <[email protected]> napisao je: > >> >> > >> >> Hi all :) > >> >> > >> >> Just thinking out loud, these may be some suggestions... > >> >> > >> >> How hard is it to implement a theorem prover in Atomese? (narrow, > but noticeable user base; a strong potential for graph visualization) > >> >> How hard is it to implement a math expression solver in Atomese? > (wider user base; weaker potential for graph visualization) > >> >> How hard is it to implement a program code synthesis system in > Atomese? (well, this should be the future of programming; almost none > potential for graph visualization) > >> >> > >> >> Do I miss something more ear-catching, and more applicable to graph > visualization? Does this make any sense at all with fitting into the big > OpenCog picture? Lastly, does anyone have any interest in contributing to > any of these use cases? > >> >> > >> >> And another "hey" from my littleness - according to Linas' > visualisation idea, if someone decides to roll on the whole thing, and if > server side scripting not a problem, I would be interested in sponsoring > the OpenCog foundation with a fractal graph visualizer for tree structures > repo that I'm developing for some time now. Of course, I am able to adjust > the visualizer licence to OpenCog licencing standards, and I'm prepared for > very flexible terms, so no worries from that side. > >> >> > >> >> Be well, > >> >> Ivan > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> sub, 10. srp 2021. u 07:27 Ivan V. <[email protected]> napisao > je: > >> >>> > >> >>> May I ask did you solve the problem from bullet No. 1? Who will use > it and for which purpose? > >> >>> > >> >>> uto, 6. srp 2021. u 00:54 Linas Vepstas <[email protected]> > napisao je: > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Hi Mike, > >> >>>> > >> >>>> On Mon, Jul 5, 2021 at 11:30 AM Michael Duncan < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> linus, here is a suggestion for a useful domain agnostic > graphical interface to attract opensource devs to opencog and lower the > learning curve for the opencog system. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Yes. The way I like to think of it is "people like visual bling, > so how can we make the tutorials visual and entertaining?" > >> >>>> > >> >>>>> start with a knowledge metagraph complex enough to be a useful > for the "intro to opencog" tutorial, which would include the atoms in all > the examples. some subset of SUMO small enough to fit into a low end > laptop (4-8G ram?) is one possibility but i'm guessing because i haven't > actually played with SUMO or any of the examples except for the ones in the > unit tests... > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> I'm certain that 100% of SUMO will easily fit into a few hundred > megabytes, and probably a lot less. (Size is not a problem; the AtomSpace > has been very highly optimized for size and speed.) My only problem with > SUMO is "what is it good for?" or "what can you do with it?" -- someone > would need to figure that out. > >> >>>> > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> ideally there would be a public server running the demo system > so users could run the examples from their phone or a netbook, with step by > step instructions for setting up a local instance for more ambitious users > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> There are several places where such servers could be run; I have > several public servers (for other things) literally within arms length. > There's already a cloud instance hosting the opencog site; it could also be > used. So availability of servers/compute is not an issue. Heck, you could > run the whole thing on a raspberry pi, I think ... > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> a dashboard shows stats for the complete atomspace (type counts > for atoms, data sources, etc), and a menu for pulling example > sub-metagraphs from the atomspace server > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> grafana was suggested for that ... > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> paired visualizer windows based on atomspace explorer code > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Well, but the atomspace explorer code doesn't work, which is what > started this conversation. It would require a large amount of effort to fix > it ... Recall, Lansana suggested that we should throw it away, and replace > it with some other system, written in React. ... > >> >>>> > >> >>>> In other words .. start from scratch. Ooof. The only rule of the > game here is the person doing the work gets to pick the tools being used. > The only advice is a trope from ancient Kung Fu movies: "choose wisely". > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Hey, if someone else writes some code to take a flat file of > atomese in it, and visualize it, I'll write the code to hook it up to a > live atomspace. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> --linas > >> >>>> > >> >>>>> to show the graph representation of the atomese metagraph and the > more conventional knowledge graph triplet translation of the data based on > the mozi parsing code. hovering over nodes or links in either view would > show more detailed info and highlight corresponding objects in the other > viewer. > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> each viewer has an editor to visually construct new graphs, > directly in atomese in the explorer version or as node-link-node triples in > the conventional window that gets translated into atomese in the explorer > window. > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> new sub-metagraphs could then be added to the existing atomspace > or a new atomspace depending on server resources. add a pattern matcher > interface window and new metagraphs could be used to query the atomspace. > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> make some jupyter notebooks of the examples accessible from the > server with instructions for following along in the editor and you've > expanded the potential audience for opencog by several orders of magnitude. > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> On Sunday, July 4, 2021 at 5:49:58 PM UTC-4 [email protected] > wrote: > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> On Sunday, 4 July 2021 at 23:34:50 UTC+2 Adrian Borucki wrote: > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> On Saturday, 3 July 2021 at 03:48:53 UTC+2 linas wrote: > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> Hi Lansana, > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 11:58 PM Lansana Camara < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> Keep in mind that even Grafana's UI is built in JavaScript ;) > building a modern frontend like what you're seeking using a language like > C/C++ would be an anti-pattern. It's simply harder to do it that way. > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> We hear you. You have a very strong opinion. But before you > say, once again, how hard C and C++ is, and how easy javascript is, you > should try Glade. https://glade.gnome.org/ And not just try it, but get > good with it. Build an app with it. > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> Ah, I remember toying with Glade… a decade ago. I don’t think > GNOME developers use it anymore - GNOME Shell itself uses JavaScript > nowadays for example. > >> >>>>>>> A better proposition for C++ would be QtCreator because it and > Qt framework at least are supposed to be cross platform - there is a UI > designer in QtCreator of course. > >> >>>>>>> All in all the problem with these is that they make you stuck > with a specific tool (Glade / QtCreator) and framework (GTK+ / Qt) and none > of those are particularly popular anymore (besides GTK+’s niche in Linux > world). > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> There is another drawback I forgot to mention -- Glade (as well > as QtCreator) do not generate code for the GUI (they only generate code > stubs for signals/slots). Glade saves an XML (QtCreator has something > similar, I don’t remember if it’s XML) which then has to be loaded by > GtkBuilder to build the interface on the fly (similar mechanism for Qt) -- > this means that if in the future you want to modify this interface you > *have* to use those particular tools or learn to navigate XML manually, you > do not get everything represented by understandable code, the GUI > representation will be more obscured by the process. One advantage of the > tools below on the other hand is that they seem to produce actual JS code, > so a programmer can just modify it as they see fit later on and you’re not > locked to those tools. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> Now, if we had some kind of app builder for javascript, then, > yes, you might have a point. > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> A quick search shows that there are some options for JS too, > like https://openchakra.app, https://reactstudio.com or > https://builderx.io. > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> But as long as you use words like "anti-pattern", that is just > bomb-throwing. It basically illustrates that .. I dunno .. you are young > and inexperienced, and haven't been around the block, yet. There's much, > much more to this big wide world than what your friends are talking about. > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> When you drink the Kool-Aide, ask yourself, "what did they put > in this stuff?" > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> --linas > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 9:53 AM Abdulrahman Semrie < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>> Hi Linas, > >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>> (Sorry for not responding earlier. As Mike have explained, > I'm on vacation and don't check my e-mail regularly. I should be able to > answer more questions when I'm back next week) > >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>> More or less, the three requirements that you mentioned > above have either been partially implemented (1) or were planned to be > implemented (2 & 3) in the previous Mozi platform iteration, albeit using > the (now old?) Python API of the AtomSpace. The code for both the backend > and frontend is available on gitlab in a private Mozi repository. I should > probably export it to github and make it public. > >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>> Going through the list of requirements: > >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>> 1) We had an interface to create an AtomSpace from a scheme > file but back then we had issues keeping the imported data into separate > AtomSpaces and accessing them independently. If you remember. this is > before you implemented the copy-on-write functionality. However, with the > AtomSpace gRPC server that I wrote few months back, this is possible and I > have been using multiple atomspaces to run annotation tasks but haven't > developed a generic UI around it. > >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>> 2) I was actually planning to extend the gRPC server by > integrating it with Grafana for monitoring purposes. Unfortunately, I > didn't find the time to implement it. AFAIK, Grafana handles much of the UI > stuff and only needs some API for it to be used as a dashboard/monitoring > tool. I think this is easier than writing a new UI code. > >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>> 3) For the visualization, in addition to the visualizer in > https://github.com/opencog/external-tools/, we developed our own custom > Cytospace visualizer that visualized atoms representing biochemical > entities using custom layouts. This is the visualizer used in the > annotation service you linked above. The main issue we had with the > Cytoscape visualizer was calculating the layout algorithms on the front-end > when the size of the graph got bigger. I suppose anyone who wants to use a > data explorer with the atomspace will eventually run into such a > performance issue as the atomspace gets bigger. To resolve this, I created > a small library that runs the layout algorithm on the backend and send the > coordinates of the nodes and edges to the front-end. This code is not > generic but some part of it can be reused or it can be refactored to make > it generic. > >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>> > Maybe a kind-of-like jupyter for the atomspace. > >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>> This kind of functionality was also implemented on the old > Mozi platform using cogserver but it needs updating. > >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>> In conclusion, a skeleton of what you have listed above > exists, but needs refactoring to make it generic/reusable and also merge it > into one tool/product. > >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, June 26, 2021 at 10:04:34 PM UTC+3 linas wrote: > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Xabush, > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> So I have a tough question for you: the MOZI webserver ... > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm trying to solve a meta-problem: I want to increase > developer engagement in opencog/atomspace. For that, it would be nice to > have a web UI. Three of them actually, or four. > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> 1) A web UI that allows users to create new atomspaces, and > put (by hand) some atoms into it, and visualize simple graphs. So, people > can point their browser at it, and mess around. > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> 2) A job control panel web UI. So, for the language > learning project, I have a collection of bash scripts that start and stop > the atomspace, and ingest text files, and take hours or days to run. I > thought of MOZI because it has some similar requirements. > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> 3) A data explorer. Given an atomspace, with say, millions > of atoms (from language learning, or from biochem), I want to explore > what's inside of it: print all atoms in some cluster, ranked by frequency, > or plot some histogram of mutual information vs frequency or whatever. > Maybe a kind-of-like jupyter for the atomspace. Again, I think of the MOZI > work in this direction. You were trying to get a simple web UI for > biochemists to use. I want the same deal, but for linguists. Under the > covers, it's all the same stuff: just atoms in the atomspace. > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> How can this be accomplished? You've built some kind of > custom solution for 2 & 3 for MOZI, but I don't understand how to backtrack > out of that, and custom-tailor it so that it works for language learning > instead of ChEBI or PubChem. Any ideas? > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> I mean, you and Hedra have put a lot of effort into these > things... > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> I see things like this: > >> >>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/MOZI-AI/annotation-service > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> and this: > >> >>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/MOZI-AI/annotation-service-ui > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> And I'd like to have it work for the kinds of graphs and > systems in the language-learning codebase, instead of biochemistry. What > would it take to have that work? Do I really have to start from scratch? Is > there a way to recycle any of the work that you've done, and use it for > other applications? > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't want to go off and state the obvious, but maybe I > should go off and state the obvious: if this web UI stuff was generic, then > other users could use it, which means that other users could show up and > help fix bugs and add features. It would grow the project overall ... it > would help anyone interested in the atomspace and in singularitynet and all > that jazz ... > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> BTW, back in the days of Hanson Robotics, we had the same > problem ... I think we throw a lot of money at some Brazillian to create a > WebUI for the Owyl behavior tree subsystem, but .. of course, that code > failed with the AtomSpace, so it was like .. wasted money, wasted effort. > .. we still don't have a generic AtomSpace WebUI ... > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> -- Linas > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> -- > >> >>>>>>>>>>> Patrick: Are they laughing at us? > >> >>>>>>>>>>> Sponge Bob: No, Patrick, they are laughing next to us. > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>> -- > >> >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the > Google Groups "opencog" group. > >> >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails > from it, send an email to [email protected]. > >> >>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/d16f492c-26f2-4f21-807e-e02cfd8f7c6cn%40googlegroups.com > . > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> -- > >> >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the > Google Groups "opencog" group. > >> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from > it, send an email to [email protected]. > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAPPXERrWx4%2B59Kf163pAnmyaOD%2B5bbQ0pSJ89vFbE50CPrSLNw%40mail.gmail.com > . > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> -- > >> >>>>>>>> Patrick: Are they laughing at us? > >> >>>>>>>> Sponge Bob: No, Patrick, they are laughing next to us. > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>> -- > >> >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the > Google Groups "opencog" group. > >> >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > send an email to [email protected]. > >> >>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/b750b969-6cb6-4303-b986-7e963e0d90bfn%40googlegroups.com > . > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> -- > >> >>>> Patrick: Are they laughing at us? > >> >>>> Sponge Bob: No, Patrick, they are laughing next to us. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> -- > >> >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "opencog" group. > >> >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > send an email to [email protected]. > >> >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAHrUA35tErzxe%3D%2Bj2hObh36d__4Ghmi_u7b9cJ3LuK8PD%3DeXsQ%40mail.gmail.com > . > >> > > >> > -- > >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "opencog" group. > >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > send an email to [email protected]. > >> > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAB5%3Dj6Uyjdc4DLmGwrV%2Bn77Yybv4RR1-9yHUifRAhrbisDnejw%40mail.gmail.com > . > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Patrick: Are they laughing at us? > >> Sponge Bob: No, Patrick, they are laughing next to us. > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "opencog" group. > >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to [email protected]. > >> To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAHrUA37CeXb842bPi2QP6W9f%2B41PWLZQvi9gKJqmD3-vOUeBoQ%40mail.gmail.com > . > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "opencog" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to [email protected]. > > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAB5%3Dj6V%2Bps2AXzqkUiB-M%3DWm_07p2w1BHX%3D3J-y4E6Ngst%3DEjg%40mail.gmail.com > . > > > > -- > Patrick: Are they laughing at us? > Sponge Bob: No, Patrick, they are laughing next to us. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "opencog" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAHrUA36jr9g2pWav5sSCJsBi-aXC1PNi19SeKyGOMoRiBk0vwQ%40mail.gmail.com > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "opencog" group. 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