I do admit it's huge and complex challenge Mohamed. And by all means they're typically expected to be cryptic now (They're even words that are mentioned for the first time in history and may be for their last if other words were chosen to represent those meanings). Computer is being tought now at governmental schools and "In Arabic" I've seen that myself in 1st year secondary book and the student told me they've been studying this since years! and I was shocked by the level of ugliness it was done (not to mention that they're teaching them Visual Basic in Arabic! and guess what they teach them in preparatory schools the Flow Charts calling them: خرائط التدفق!!!!!).
Just as a point that has to be clear for everyone. Defining those terms in Arabic does not mean we'll use them next day. The process is very complex and requires to be integrated with a huge reinvention of the wheel in our educational systems. On the level of high level education (University\College levels) it's expected to remain in English for years. But the expression of those terms in Arabic has to happen at some point of time to be used later and become familiar words/terms. If you can generate a new word that is closer to the English pronunciation and put it "Arabized" with arabic letters like what happened with "برمج" it would be really great! Probably that's the kind of feedback I was looking for: new suggestions with much more radically different views. May be "سفتال" & "هردال" ! Looks funny but it's an option :) they all are expected to be very funny now :) we just need to be open :) And your suggestion Mohamed is actually excellent! Thanks for it! & Don't worry you & me are typically not the target audience for the arabic How-Tos :) we even use English in our work, cell-phones and personal laptops. So don't worry the English ones will still be our easier ones to go with. But for next generations it might be different. Again thanks all... I really like that this is going on... Regards, Rehab Massoud Postgraduate Student Nile University, Egypt [email protected] On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 12:17 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Rehab, > > Is computer actually taught in primary or preparatory school in Egypt?I > doubt it, I mean the logic would follow that we would have so much more > kids writing code. > Go forth and do as you you shall, but remember what level of translation > you are looking to do. Your translations proposals below are completely > cryptic to me, I would need to either translate them back to english or > translate them to something more egyptian sounding to have a remote idea > what they mean. I mean does anyone here know what "سرماد/سرنسق > (أو سرماد وسرلين من سربال مادي وسربال نسقي أو لين" mean? except for لين > which I would translate to "Tary" then figure out it means soft > > Also this level of translation is perhaps useful to some end users, but a > programmer would absolutely need to know how to read english since there is > no arabic programming language(in fact, I don't think a programming > language in non-english exists or in wide use and that would include german > , french, spanish and japanese) > > I don't mean to discourage you, and perhaps it would be interesting to > know what is your background. I think there is a lot of work on linguistics > that could be tremendeously helpful but not necessarily documentation. I am > just thinking whether this level of translation would be the best use of > your time as a resource. And to be completely honest, I can't get excited > about reading a HOW-TO in arabic if this is going to be what it reads like > > Lastly, I would suggest a bit more pragmatic approach if you want to go on > with this. Consider a little bit non-purist empahsis and try to complete a > few HOW-Tos without solving all the outstanding questions/challenges since > those are big and will keep dereferencing into bigger and deeper topics so > maybe a few complete HOW-TOs for ubuntu might be interesting to evaluate > this work on preliminary basis. > > Regards > Mohamed > > > > On Monday, February 25, 2013 9:33:15 AM UTC+1, Rehab Massoud wrote: > >> Hi there, >> >> Thanks for contributions, I was not expecting to get that much feed-back >> especially when few hours passed without one. It's the first I ever open >> such a technical-linguistic discussion; and for sure it was not expected to >> be easy to anyone to read an e-mail proposing new terms or introducing new >> vocabulary. Add to this also that I'm not specialized in linguistics so I'm >> not aware of how it should be presented. >> >> Actually I wanted to wait to bypass my couple of days of sickness as well >> to be able to concentrate well :) >> >> Just will reply here fast & then will go to the other thread to Thank Ahmad >> Gharbeia. >> >> We do actually use these English words in our non-formal Arabic >> discussions but to use a word according to the Arabic language rules is a >> different story. We have what is called "Arabization" so that we can apply >> arabic language rules to the newly introduced words. >> & To answer the question about what "لينال مفتوح المصدر" should mean: it >> should mean "open source software". And "Firmware" is actually just >> another word that is different and even mentioned in my other e-mail that I >> sent to Ubuntu Egypt LoCo Team <[email protected]> for the same >> topic. >> & "Firmware was mentioned in the 1st draft version of this message as in: >> ------------------------------**------------------------------** >> --------------------- >> (1) >> -سرماد/سرنسق >> (أو سرماد وسرلين من سربال مادي وسربال نسقي أو لين) >> وهنا يمكن أن تكون مثلا كلمة Firmware >> الإنجليزية >> سروسط أو سردقق >> ومن الاستخدامات >> المكونات السرمادية والمكونات السرنسقية (السرلينية)ـ >> For the English terms: Hardware/Software components >> ------------------------------**------------------------------** >> --------------------- >> & back to the problem in using these English words written in Arabic >> letters, you can get to the Egyptian primary or preparatory school computer >> or technical curriculum to realize the size of the disaster. We are in a >> bad need of revolution in this regard. The word "برمج" is Arabized, so that >> you can generate words from it by the usual Arabic language rules. This is >> what is needed in the newly introduced words if they were to be directly >> transformed in the level of letters. I hope this point is clearer now. >> >> Again, thanks to Gharbeia also for replying the part of the "domain" >> names translation. >> >> Thanks all again for your valuable contributions. I'm happy to be >> following this list and I wish we can really make a significant >> contribution in deployment & contribution to the "open" philosophy. >> >> Thanks & Regards, >> >> Rehab >> On Friday, February 22, 2013 8:39:30 PM UTC+2, Sherif El-Kassas wrote: >>> >>> I agree with Mohamed. Especially that this us already done in many >>> formal Arabic translations. Like >>> اسماء الدومين >>> for domain names.. >>> All the best, >>> Sherif >>> On Feb 22, 2013 5:24 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Rehab, >>>> >>>> I must say this was a difficult message to read, I could barely >>>> pronounce the words. I am not sure if I would be the only one, but If I >>>> read "لينال مفتوح المصدر" what it means.How would you translate firmware? >>>> what about BIOS or device driver? would you expand them or not? If you are >>>> writing documentation for GNU, shouldn't it be more interesting to deliver >>>> the semantics of the documentation rather than the more abstract discussion >>>> on linguistics. I personally don't think there is anything wrong with using >>>> common well known english words spelled in arabic characters. Many >>>> languages does this already for various words with the option of having the >>>> (usually more difficult) native translation. >>>> >>>> >>>> Good luck >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> Mohamed >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Friday, February 22, 2013 11:37:38 AM UTC+1, Rehab Massoud wrote: >>>>> >>>>> السلام عليكم >>>>> >>>>> في بداية انضمامي الآن لمجموعة ترجمة جنو للعربية وعند مناقشة الموضوع >>>>> عرض علي منسق المجموعة "رفيق" أن أرسل هنا للنقاش حول ترجمة ثنائية >>>>> Hardware|Software >>>>> للعربية، وحقيقة الموضوع شائك لأن الكلمة مستخدمة على كل الإنترنت تقريبا >>>>> على أن "برمجيات" هي ترجمة Software >>>>> رغم أن كلمة برمجية هي من النسبة إلى الفعل المعرب برمج والبرامج من هذا >>>>> الفعل معناها ككلمة Program >>>>> الإنجليزية وهي بنفس معناها العربي الذي يجعل كلمة برنامج عامة جداً >>>>> (برامج حكومية، برامج تليفيزيونية، .... إلخ) ولا يصح نسبة Software >>>>> إليها لتصبح برمجيات رغم أنها في الغالب مجموعة من الخطوات والتجهيزات >>>>> والإعدادات كالبرامج إلا أن الكلمة لا تزال نسبة تامة إلى الفعل برمج وهو ما >>>>> لا ينطبق مثلا على بعض الـ >>>>> Software >>>>> مثل الـ >>>>> Device drivers, COTs SW, and it does not express the generic nature of >>>>> software that has a code, binaries and then being have to work on some >>>>> platform (either downloaded to a typical target HW or just to run on an OS >>>>> operating on a machine, or even just called via a server as a service). On >>>>> the other side there is still a program which might be a working software >>>>> or a designed steps or framework for doing something like an educational >>>>> program for example. >>>>> كما أن العيب الثاني الواضح جدا هو عدم وجود مقابل لها كما في >>>>> Hardware\Software duality >>>>> لذا قررت البدء في هذا القبس لمناقشة الموضوع هنا بناء على اقتراح رفيق >>>>> >>>>> ورأيت أيضا أني يجب أن أبدأ بنفسي وأقترح بعض البدائل >>>>> >>>>> ولكن قبل أن تكملوا القراءة وجب التنويه :) السطور التالية تحتاج لقدر >>>>> كبير من سعة الأفق والخيال وإدراك حجم وعمق مشكلة أن نؤسس لمصطلحات كهذه >>>>> ينتظر >>>>> لها أن تصلح للاستخدام البسيط والتعليمي والأكاديمي بل والتسويقي الذي يمكنها >>>>> من تقديم بديل مكافئ تماما لثنائية >>>>> Software\Hardware >>>>> بحيث تحل محلها في العربية ترجمة واستخداماً >>>>> وحقيقة قد بدأت التفكير في الموضوع منذ فترة عندما طلب مني لأول مرة >>>>> كتابة مختصر عن بحثي باللغة العربية >>>>> >>>>> المهم أترككم الآن مع بعض الاقتراحات وأتمنى أن يشارك بها أكبر قدر من >>>>> المهتمين وأن تحاولوا حتى توصيل هذا النقاش إلى أكبر قدر من المتخصصين. >>>>> >>>>> المجموعة الآتية من المقترحات مبنية على "النحت" من كلمتين لتقدم أحداهما >>>>> الجزء الثابت المقابل لكلمة (ware) الإنجليزية والثانية تعبر عن الثنائية >>>>> >>>>> -للتعبير عن الجزء الثابت يمكن استخدام كلمات مثل: لبس، سربال، حاوية >>>>> (حوى)، وعاء، قبس (ما أخذ من كل ويحوي منه)!، سلعة (سلع)، بضاعة (بضع)، بعض >>>>> (كجزء مقابل جزء آخر)، صنو (الصنوان النخلتان تخرجان من أصل واحد) >>>>> -للتعبير عن الثنائية: صلب، مادي - وعلى الجهة الأخرى لين، نسقي، (من >>>>> التنسم) نسم، (من النعومة) نعم >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1 >>>>> لينال/صلبال >>>>> من نحت لين/صلب مع سربال >>>>> وميزتها أن آل في آخر الكلمة تجعلها عند النسبة وكأنها منسوبة للآلة >>>>> مثلا ترجمة Software and Hardware components >>>>> تصبح المكونات اللينالية والمكونات الصلبالية >>>>> >>>>> لينال حر Free Software >>>>> >>>>> لينال مفتوح المصدر Open source software >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2 >>>>> سرلين/سرماد >>>>> من نحت "سر" من سربال في لين ثم في "ماد" من مادة أو مادي >>>>> >>>>> 3 >>>>> صنولين/صنولب >>>>> أي صنو صلب وصنو لين >>>>> وهذه تصلح جدا للأنظمة المدمجة >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> في انتظار آرائكم ومقترحاتكم >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> رحاب >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ملاحظة جانبية: >>>>> أيضا ترجمة code >>>>> إلى شفرة لا أدري هل هي صحيحة ومعتبرة أو مستخدمة أساسا أم لا، نحتاج >>>>> أيضا إلى ترجمة دقيقة ومعبرة لـمصطلح >>>>> source-code >>>>> >>>>> لأن الترجمة العربية: "شفرة المصدر" تبدو غريبة وغير معبرة أو ربما هذا >>>>> لأني مبرمجة أصلا ,أكتب بنفسي "الشفرات"!!! الآن فقط أشعر أني أقوم بعمل >>>>> عبقري >>>>> فعلا! :-) >>>>> عودة:(من مختار الصحاح) في اللغة العربية الشفرة بالفتحة السكين العظيم، >>>>> والشفر بالضم واحد أشفار العين وهي حروف الأجفان التي ينبت عليها الشعر، وحرف >>>>> كل شيء شفره (بضم الشين)... ولكن لنجعل لهذه الترجمة لاحقا قبس آخر (Another >>>>> e-mail thread :D ) >>>>> >>>>> تحياتي والسلام >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Rehab Massoud >>>>> Postgraduate Student >>>>> Nile University, Egypt >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "OpenEgypt" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]**. >>>> For more options, visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out<https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out> >>>> . >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "OpenEgypt" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "OpenEgypt" group. 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