We didn’t use the ISE for JSON.  Why should we use it here?

Eliot

> On 11 Nov 2020, at 21:15, Brian E Carpenter <[email protected]> 
> wrote:
> 
> On 12-Nov-20 04:07, Toerless Eckert wrote:
>> On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 10:34:25AM +0100, Eliot Lear wrote:
>>> Hang on a moment.
>>> 
>>> The PCAP community has been looking for a home to evolve the work.
>> 
>>> We can decide on whether to start with informational or STD
>>> but the reason to lean toward the latter is that this is a broadly used 
>>> standard
>>> that is looking for a home to evolve.
>> 
>> So, how is this base specification not a pre-ordained protocol developed
>> outside the IETF that can not be significantly shaped through the work
>> of the WG if/when it sees the need to do so ?
>> 
>> What is the WG allowed to design for this protocol spec ? Wordsmithing
>> and blessing ? Anything else ?
>> 
>>> Moreover, there is a clear need for IANA here, for tagging information 
>>> inside the PCAP.
>> 
>> That does AFAIK not require IETF WG RFC, and besides, i am not
>> even sure that it even needs an IETF document to create registries @IANA.
> 
> It doesn't, as long as the Independent Stream Editor and IANA agree
> to it. The Independent Stream explicitly allows for documenting
> widely used solutions that are *not* the result of IETF consensus.
> 
> It's fine for the pcapng community to decide to cede change control
> to the IETF, but if they want to document the *existing* protocol
> as is, before handing over change control,  IMHO the Independent
> Stream is exactly the right way to go. It would also probably be
> quicker, too.
> 
> Then develop PCAPNGbis in opsawg, by all means.
> 
>    Brian
> 
>> Worst case one could have an external, not even RFC specification and
>> have the WG a small "bless you pcapng" standards track RFC that does
>> exactly that and asks for creation of the IANA registries.
>> 
>>>  This is really a win-win opportunity.  The PCAP developers need a place 
>>> that helps them formally state extensions and they need a way to not trip 
>>> over one another on extension numbers.  Does that mean we have to take the 
>>> doc as it is?  No.  But changes should simply be by consensus, and I doubt 
>>> you will find a lot of consensus for frivolous changes.
>> 
>> Let me know which of my asks you think is frivolous.
>> 
>> Cheers
>>    Toerless
>> 
>>> Eliot
>>> 
>>>> On 11 Nov 2020, at 10:21, Toerless Eckert <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks for explaining. Cc'in ISE to keep me honest:
>>>> 
>>>> I don't think this process ("IETF bless this protocol, no, we can't change 
>>>> anything
>>>> significant") is appropriate for an Internet Standards Track RFC.  I can 
>>>> not
>>>> even see informatinal as appropriate if WG consensus is constrained by 
>>>> pre-existing
>>>> code developed without consensus by the WG. Ideally a spec like this 
>>>> should be an
>>>> individual submission RFC. I don't think that prohibits that OPSAWG can be 
>>>> used as
>>>> a location where the authors ask for feedback and decide which of the 
>>>> feedback they
>>>> are willing to incorporate. I would certainly encourage OPSAWG to do that. 
>>>> I think
>>>> that best allows the authors to maintain ownership of all design decisions 
>>>> and
>>>> get all the community feedback that suits the authors.
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers
>>>>   Toerless
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 09:54:22AM +0100, Carsten Bormann wrote:
>>>>> PCAPNG is a done deal.
>>>>> 
>>>>> We might want to discuss a next generation after that, but I would expect 
>>>>> that people are still happy after having migrated from PCAP to PCAPNG.
>>>>> 
>>>>> So this effort was about documenting the protocol and making sure the 
>>>>> extension points are well-documented and well-curated.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Grüße, Carsten

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